Grumpy old men: armchair brand management

[Heinrad]

I kind of see where they're going with Bludgeon, and the Tarn mold is a good match, I guess. And while I'm glad they didn't give him the 'melting face' from Stormbringer, the Tarn mold looks like a good fit, more or less.

I didn't get Tarn, so all I can go by is pics and reviews.

If I was in charge, and it wouldn't break the bank, I'd have had the molds designed so you could swap out inserts to change the mechanical greebling. That way you can use the same mold to make, say, five different characters who would share the same transformation but each would look different. In this case, say, designs on the knee pads and shin guards. The part stays overall the same shape, but the surface detail is different.

And I'm not sure about vehicle mode. Bludgeon is a tank, but not a continental siege unit.

[Warcry]

Well, after seeing the variety of new stuff shown for the SDCC, I think that Hasbro's doing quite well with the variety of characters/decos offered. I like the breadth offered, even if it's simultaneous with frequent character retreads (Ultra Magnus again already?).

Sticking by the criticism of prices and availability, though.

I feel like the prices make the redos more of an issue, if that makes sense? The Beehives we'd see circa 2010 could be annoying, but if the new Moviebee was incrementally better than last year's, it only cost $17 or something. Someone who's a really big Ultra Magnus fan has already spent around $150 (Canadian prices) getting the two WFC Leaders and would now have to spend another $130ish if they wanted to upgrade to the new one (which I'd assume they'd would, since the consensus on the two WFC attempts seems pretty lukewarm). That's almost $300 for toys of one character in less than five years, and Magnus is far from the only one who's gotten this treatment.

I take a different angle to collecting, so it really doesn't impact me too much. But I don't think that folks who are chasing that "perfect representation" high are wrong to be peeved about stuff like this.

Personally, I didn't see too much that I found exciting among the SDCC stuff, beyond Magnus (and I wouldn't buy Magnus unless I can get him on a significant discount, like I did with Rodimus), but that's fine. Other folks seem to be happy with it and not everything needs to be for me.

Absolutely love the Legacy Stunticons, for example.

Are the other two Deluxe molds as much fun as Drag Strip? They were snapped up pretty much instantly in Canada by people who wanted to complete the team, so I never saw any for sale and didn't pay much attention to them. But I wouldn't be opposed to grabbing a couple G2 decos if they're up to the same quality as the one that I've got.

It's like convention repaints never went away, isn't it?

I feel like the plan for Selects from day one was "BotCon stuff but everyone can own it", and that philosophy has carried over to a lot of recent store-exclusive stuff as well. I don't hate it. It results in a lot of toys I don't care about, but also a lot of cool figures that you'd never get at retail.

It's definitely been creeping into the main line lately when they needed to fill a spot with a cheap repaint, though.

This is a distinctly underwhelming head swap. I suppose it could count as an update of the RID (2015) one.

The evolution of this Bludgeon design from ROTF to now is actually kind of fascinating. It started off as a firmly "movie" take on the character, but it seems to have been adopted as the default now and every iteration since then (ROTF to Prime to RiD to Cyberverse to Legacy) has made the design progressively less distinctive. It's easy to forget that it started out with very clear samurai armour and robo-skeleton elements to the design that have slowly disappeared.

Tarn is a genuinely good toy but not at all what I think of when I think "Bludgeon". I know he's shown up here and there in IDW and the recent cartoons, but I think most fans of the character still expected (and preferred!) that a Generations toy would channel the Marvel interpretation and not the modern ones. The Ultimates Bludgeon is a lot closer to what I'd want from the character, but Super Seven is so underwater in terms of release schedules that I'd be absolutely stunned if it ever comes out.

If I don't score a G2 trooper later in the week I might go for the troop builder pack too, by the time you've bought two of them parted out plus shipping costs it's worth it and there isn't really a bad figure in there... so was happy enough to be outbid earlier on a seeker. I've just got two of them already as Crosshairs and the earlier Allicon. In many ways it's a rare good attempt at a bundled release.

I was actually just thinking the other day that it was a terrible box set. Hasbro usually does a good job of handling army-builder sets on the Marvel side of things, but the logistics of this one is just a headache because how many fans want to army-build all four of these at once? The figures themselves seem quite good, but as army-builders it seems really impractical. I love G2 and I love Seekers but I have no desire for any of the others...or for four different slightly off-model Thundercrackers, honestly, as much as I'd like a small team of henchmen to hang out with Jhiaxus.

I feel like they'd have done better business by having separate troop-builder packs for each of Sunbow (a seeker and a Reflector redeco, and maybe a toy-colours blue cassette?), the Quints (Allicon and Sharkticon), Autotroopers (van and car version) and G2 (tank and jet molds). Some fans would have bought 5+ of their pack of choice and I don't see too many people buying multiples of the current one. I could be wrong, I'm just thinking of what seems to work for Legends.

Or just sculpt the feet so they look like the back of the vehicle. Strongarm seems a particularly egregious example. It's not like her feet are a defining characteristic. Also, Earthrise Ironhide/Ratchet. SS 86 Jazz would've looked fine with smaller toes that formed a well-proportioned bumper. OK, maybe not, since a grey bumper would look odd. But, Jackpot would look good.

I think it's just a matter of changing priorities. Up until the last few years, good vehicle modes were the priority and the robots would suffer some in order to make the car/jet/dino/whatever look good. Nowadays, the robots get the priority and the alt-modes will suffer for it. Things have been slowly moving in this direction ever since they changed up which mode they packed the toys in but it's really gotten noticeable in the last few years.

[Clay]

The Ultimates Bludgeon is a lot closer to what I'd want from the character, but Super Seven is so underwater in terms of release schedules that I'd be absolutely stunned if it ever comes out.

It's out and in stock now.

No idea if the price is agreeable. They seem expensive for what they are, but then everything seems expensive now.

[Denyer]

I feel like the plan for Selects from day one was "BotCon stuff but everyone can own it",

Fair, although as you say the differentiation has slipped. Selects also means not having to follow SKUs as closely since they're online market oriented.

I think most fans of the character still expected (and preferred!) that a Generations toy would channel the Marvel interpretation and not the modern ones. The Ultimates Bludgeon is a lot closer to what I'd want from the character, but Super Seven is so underwater in terms of release schedules that I'd be absolutely stunned if it ever comes out.

I wouldn't have been too upset if they'd gone the IDW route (the 'wires' head is at least distinctive) and done what Heinrad suggested with some alternate parts baked into the mould from the beginning. It wouldn't look like a lazy OTFCC offering then and might even have been worth a punt.

Some fairly nice photos and background here though, if the cannons are arranged in a way that doesn't scream Tarn (again, seeming like a deliberate RID homage):
https://www.seibertron.com/transformers ... tes/47808/

Hasbro seems to be starting to wise up a little bit with e.g. the troop multipack that extra heads are a good selling point. And we know that they habitually add tooling to moulds that can be blocked off when production lines are running (or the extra parts can simply be discarded and the plastic added back to the raw material bins, I presume that's an option).

Hopefully the Super7 one will materialise, but I think online retailers are getting sick of trying to guess order quantities and that might be the point further waves fail to find traction with enough pre-orders. Without looking up images again, waves 4 and 5 seem to have fewer and fewer pieces in them and apart from Soundwave to be a redo of earlier releases to an extent anyway. Even the ones homaging AM Bombshell and Banzai-Tron got remaindered to an extent, and Kapow was posting the other day about Turtles "ultimates" figures ending up in BM at deep discount (presumably a big online retailer was able to back out of some large orders -- or a retailer went bust -- because shipping deadlines were so overshot).

Selfishly, if they do Bludgeon I'm not really fussed if they release other stuff. Might look at the G2 Megatron (maybe it'll look better in production) but honestly quite satisfied with the various other releases there've been over the years. A new actual pretender-style Bludgeon is a rarity, and I don't really care about non-transforming figures much unless they're homaging existing non-transforming figures like the AMs or pretenders. If they'd done Sideswipe in the AM version (or Charger) instead of e.g. Tracks as their random selection I'd have been all over it.

They're actively posting updates and quoting September at the moment.

https://super7.com/pages/pre-order-status-page

how many fans want to army-build all four of these at once?

I wasn't really looking at it as an army builder in that sense... they're all background characters to pad out ranks. It's what, three deluxes and a voyager, and available for less than the Hasbro price including shipping here* if you shop around. If someone actually did want several of each of a couple of them, it's probably at least as effective as Marvel Legends BAF stuff in getting people to split packs with friends or flip the unwanted parts of a set on eBay.

* i.e. UK -- https://www.comicsandcocktails.co.uk/st ... p572646103

Don't disagree that Selects packs that were more focused would sell better, and they've got the moulds to do so. Just of the opinion that the selection seems notably better than the G1/beasts mix in other "buzzworthy" and similar packs; people might not be particularly enthusiastic about all four, but there are no real duds.

edit:

It's out and in stock now. No idea if the price is agreeable. They seem expensive for what they are, but then everything seems expensive now.

Interesting. I'm expecting the UK stock to take at least an extra few weeks though. Maybe the boats have just landed in the US (no YouTube reviews yet by the looks of it).

For a short-run made to order thing, other than the fact that Super7 couldn't choose appropriately non-rigid plastic for hands etc to save themselves (issue on Bombshell, "vintage" style MOTU figures, etc) -- and issues shared with e.g. Funko Savage World figures, so it's a general problem with some factories they're using, I think -- they're not awful. As occasional things, bearing in mind how diverse TF fandom interest is. Anyone trying to collect a set of the Thundercats stuff, though... ouch.

[Warcry]

It's out and in stock now.

No idea if the price is agreeable. They seem expensive for what they are, but then everything seems expensive now.

Huh. When did that happen? I preordered the stupid thing two years ago (literally two years ago to the day actually, funny how that works out) and have received zero updates on it from the retailer. On the other hand, considering how hopelessly mediocre the TMNT Ultimates figure I got a few months ago was, maybe that's a good thing? It looks like what I'd want, but so did Leonardo and he was a fragile, barely poseable mess.

Hopefully the Super7 one will materialise, but I think online retailers are getting sick of trying to guess order quantities and that might be the point further waves fail to find traction with enough pre-orders.

I don't think any of the Ultimates lines have taken off the way the TMNT ones did, and even the TMNT stuff has really tapered off in popularity after they moved past the dozen or so really obvious "must haves" and onto things that people are only going to pick up if they owned the original toy as a kid and really liked it.

Marketing a few figures with pre-production pictures that don't at all represent the actual product probably burned a fair bit of goodwill, as well. The fact that they were trying to hock wave 10 of TMNT before delivering wave 7, likewise. That list of preorders you linked to nicely illustrates why things have been delayed, as they appear to have expanded Ultimates to include every pop culture brand and persona in the world.

and Kapow was posting the other day about Turtles "ultimates" figures ending up in BM at deep discount (presumably a big online retailer was able to back out of some large orders -- or a retailer went bust -- because shipping deadlines were so overshot).

Despite being "made to order", very few of the Ultimates I've looked up are at all difficult to find at or below retail years after they came out. Amazon seems to be selling quite a few of them (directly, not third-party sellers) in Canada, which seems to suggest either a lot of dropped retailer orders, or some serious over-production.

They're actively posting updates and quoting September at the moment.

https://super7.com/pages/pre-order-status-page

They don't exactly have a good track record of hitting those self-reported targets, but if BBTS has stock I suppose that means they've finally made the things...

[Denyer]

No idea if the price is agreeable. They seem expensive for what they are, but then everything seems expensive now.

Forgot to add earlier -- because of the Marvel headlining in what's generally considered Furman's most memorable work, vintage Bludgeons are really sodding expensive (and don't even come with the signature weapon etc). Getting an articulated one with additional accessories and that's a similar size/scale to the original is much better perceived value for this particular figure than some others in the line-up.

If they had any sense they'd do Thunderwing too, for the same reasons.

edit: They're starting to arrive with customers now --

https://www.tfw2005.com/boards/threads/ ... 6/page-107

Agree it looks like a great display piece. Sounds like there are definitely some quality control issues of the type Super7 can't seem to get away from.

[Clay]

Huh. When did that happen?

No idea! I just went to look for pictures of the thing and saw that it was in stock. Where did you preorder it from?

If they had any sense they'd do Thunderwing too, for the same reasons.

Yeah, I can see the utility in using this style of figure for characters that seldom or never transformed, or are a weird thing like the Pretenders (like Bludgeon or Thunderwing). I could also see an appeal in visiting characters that are wildly out of scale with others and/or have impractical alternate modes (Omega Supreme, Unicron, various combiners, etc.). But then they make a figure of someone like Bombshell, which has had multiple figures (official and not) that's not even difficult to make transform, and that seems like a misuse of the idea.

Going back to the Hasbro Bludgeon-Tarn, I agree with Tantrum. The inclusion of the green and that lack of other details makes it look unfinished. In this case, I think they'd have been better off dropping the green entirely. What worked about the ROTF figure is that the orange completely disappears inside the tank, whereas this is just sort of a mish-mash that's not Roadbuster.

[Denyer]

they make a figure of someone like Bombshell, which has had multiple figures (official and not) that's not even difficult to make transform, and that seems like a misuse of the idea.

It's an extremely faithful update of the AM. A very niche thing but the Euro AMs are particularly rare... so I can't really fault them for the choice of Tracks either, just what they decided to do with the update, which doesn't follow the AM robot mode at all and has the gun and partner whilst ignoring the colour scheme. Sideswipe would have been more logical and had broader appeal than Charger even if I like the latter far more. I'd guess that someone at Super7 is just a fan of cartoon Tracks and the AM bits were an afterthought.

Would have liked to see them consider Xaaron... he's got about as much recognition (if not cool) factor as Bludgeon or Thunderwing and it's no madder than alligator Prime. On the other hand, not the most interesting design and doesn't pop like a Yaniger G2 Megs.

Similarly, this is the only line you could see a possible updated Stranglehold or Octopunch realistically released in.

[Tantrum]

Are the other two Deluxe molds as much fun as Drag Strip? They were snapped up pretty much instantly in Canada by people who wanted to complete the team, so I never saw any for sale and didn't pay much attention to them. But I wouldn't be opposed to grabbing a couple G2 decos if they're up to the same quality as the one that I've got.
...
I was actually just thinking the other day that it was a terrible box set. Hasbro usually does a good job of handling army-builder sets on the Marvel side of things, but the logistics of this one is just a headache because how many fans want to army-build all four of these at once? The figures themselves seem quite good, but as army-builders it seems really impractical. I love G2 and I love Seekers but I have no desire for any of the others...or for four different slightly off-model Thundercrackers, honestly, as much as I'd like a small team of henchmen to hang out with Jhiaxus.

I feel like they'd have done better business by having separate troop-builder packs for each of Sunbow (a seeker and a Reflector redeco, and maybe a toy-colours blue cassette?), the Quints (Allicon and Sharkticon), Autotroopers (van and car version) and G2 (tank and jet molds). Some fans would have bought 5+ of their pack of choice and I don't see too many people buying multiples of the current one. I could be wrong, I'm just thinking of what seems to work for Legends.

I only have Dragstrip and Deadend, so I can't speak for the leg-bot mold(s). Deadend is basically Dragstip redone as a normal sports car instead of an F1 racer. The arm transformation is practically identical: shoulders separate from under the hood and attach to the middle of the car, wheels rotate up to the shoulders, and sidepanels rotate 180 on the forearms. For the legs, feet fold into the back of the car, while the shins fold down to allow the legs to collapse. It doesn't work quite as well on Deadend as it does for Dragstrip, since DE has a lot more kibble on his back and calves that DS. But, if you love Dragstrip, you'll at least really like Deadend, and his G2 version is coming out soon.

I'm looking forward to the army builder 4-pack. I only have the ER seeker as Skeletor Ramjet (who doesn't have the standard F-something altmode) and Coronation Starscream (who looks too good in his cape and crown to spend much time in alt mode), so having a 3rd to fiddle with, in a color I don't already own on half a dozen Seekers, sounds nice.

I passed on the original Allicon because bot arms becoming beast arms and bot legs becoming beast legs didn't sound interesting. But, Nemesis Primal for the 1st 4-pack proved me wrong about that. Plus, this guy's basically a spikier Blot, and I like Blot. I'm gonna call this guy Splotch.

I like how the skeleton warrior's chest armor evokes a rib cage without being too obvious about it. However, I own Skullgrin, and he's not much fun to transform, and the alt mode isn't great. It's Refraktor with fake treads, no wheels, and can't combine with others to create a better alt mode. The Autotrooper is OK, I just already own this mold as Ratchet and Crosshairs, so it's nothing new.

So, 2 of the 4 figures aren't super-interesting to me. But, I think the set's $75-80. With a Voyager ($35) and Deluxe ($25) I definitely want, the two maybes are effectively half price. And, I've been wrong before about figures I din't think would wow me. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised again.

Yeah, I can see the utility in using this style of figure for characters that seldom or never transformed, or are a weird thing like the Pretenders (like Bludgeon or Thunderwing). I could also see an appeal in visiting characters that are wildly out of scale with others and/or have impractical alternate modes (Omega Supreme, Unicron, various combiners, etc.). But then they make a figure of someone like Bombshell, which has had multiple figures (official and not) that's not even difficult to make transform, and that seems like a misuse of the idea.

I think the same (correct) arguments have been made regarding R.E.D. figures. At least with that line, they made screen accurate figures of characters whose Legacy updates didn't look like them at all.

[Warcry]

Forgot to add earlier -- because of the Marvel headlining in what's generally considered Furman's most memorable work, vintage Bludgeons are really sodding expensive (and don't even come with the signature weapon etc). Getting an articulated one with additional accessories and that's a similar size/scale to the original is much better perceived value for this particular figure than some others in the line-up.

New Bludgeon's apparently huge. The original toy's only coming up to his elbows in the pictures I've seen.

The wonky helmet fit definitely concerns me but it otherwise looks like a really cool display piece, so I'm cautiously optimistic about it.

(I'm also not at all married to the idea of taking the helmet off, so I'm not above butchering the top of the skull and gluing the helmet into place if need be.)

No idea! I just went to look for pictures of the thing and saw that it was in stock. Where did you preorder it from?

Ages 3 and Up, a Canadian retailer. Obviously they just don't have their stock yet, since no one even had a Bludgeon in hand until after you'd made your first post about him!

Yeah, I can see the utility in using this style of figure for characters that seldom or never transformed, or are a weird thing like the Pretenders (like Bludgeon or Thunderwing).

I don't see Thunderwing fitting into the same box as Bludgeon at all! The original toy's shell transformed, he transformed in the comics and Hasbro's already shown that they can make a serviceable, transforming modern toy of him. You could definitely make a cool non-transforming figure of the guy but it would feel the same to me as a non-transforming Optimus or Megatron...an interesting curio but far from the ideal representation of the character.

Octopunch and Stranglehold would be great choices to go along with Bludgeon, like Denyer mentioned. Maybe Longtooth? Banzaitron was probably the best choice as far as Actiomasters go.

Going back to the Hasbro Bludgeon-Tarn, I agree with Tantrum. The inclusion of the green and that lack of other details makes it look unfinished. In this case, I think they'd have been better off dropping the green entirely. What worked about the ROTF figure is that the orange completely disappears inside the tank, whereas this is just sort of a mish-mash that's not Roadbuster.

The orange disappears in tank mode for the ROTF toy, and most of the green peels away in robot mode. It makes for two very distinct-looking modes, and like you said, this one just seems...wishy-washy?

But, if you love Dragstrip, you'll at least really like Deadend, and his G2 version is coming out soon.

In that case, I'll probably check out G2 Dead End if I ever run across one! I'm a fan of the colours if nothing else.

[Denyer]

I think the helmets should be fine if dunked in hot water for a minute and left to set placed on the head. IIRC Super7 have even given this as official advice for previous figures, rather than try to improve the plastics used.

Thunderwing (and indeed most of the pretenders) barely got out of the shell in Marvel, so the Mega Pretender concept really got lost. I'm happy enough with the first release Nitro Zeus with the titanmaster head, and the plain grey is better palette than the special edition, but an actual Thunderwing would be a big draw for a lot of folk. Of course, so would using that big Sky Shadow design and tooling for something it was probably intended for, rather than the piddling deluxe sculpt which looks like a gargoyle that's suffered centuries of surface erosion -- the alt mode is alright but the robot leaves much to be desired.

[Warcry]

I honestly had no idea that Thunderwing even was a Pretender when I was a kid. Probably not until I got my Bludgeon in the early 90s and saw him in the accompanying toy catalogue? He was drawn pretty robotic-looking in the comics and he transformed into a huge jet once or twice, so I just assumed he was a normal Transformer. I think the old Generations toy made the right choice in terms of just leaving out the inner robot completely, but it looks pretty small and dated now, and it barely transforms.

Those late-run Marvel books were all over the place in terms of scale, so the character is simultaneously barely taller than Ruckus and big enough to pop Powermaster Prime in the jaw, but I think a Voyager- or Leader-class figure with the big jet mode would make for a nice modern representation of Marvel Thunderwing. Maybe do to a separate Core-class release of the inner robot to accompany it, for the toy fans who want both? But since his shell is meant to transform he should be the easiest Pretender of all to do in Legacy form.

[Denyer]

I don't think Thunderwing having a tank drone like Sky Shadow would be too far off the mark for Legacy with some of the other things Evolution has been doing. But the problem is the tendency for new Leader class figures to be Voyager class size plus shit extras, so a mould sized like the Siege Prime or Megs does make some sense. I think I'd still reuse the SS concept -- the upper torso styling and jet look great -- but integrate the legs and have them just fold under.

A new style Leader class wouldn't hurt, I suppose. The extra mass would get used productively like on Doubledealer.

[Warcry]

Nothing's stopping them from making proper-sized Leader-class toys when they want to.



But why would they when large segments of the fandom are happy to trot out scale charts and use it as an excuse to pay more for less?

I feel like a Leader Thunderwing would probably be of the "big" variety rather than the "stuff" variety, because I'm not sure what stuff you'd include. Maybe Stormbringer armour, but that would make for a rather small IDW Thunderwing.

[Denyer]

True. And the accessory bundling and over-complexity aren't selling points anyway -- Doubledealer is essentially a nicely done Voyager figure and as a Leader should have come with the cassettes/powermasters that were sold separately. Maybe things will come full circle with the main line as well as Studio Series.

[Skyquake87]

In that case, I'll probably check out G2 Dead End if I ever run across one! I'm a fan of the colours if nothing else.

Yeo, the Stunticons are all great. Dead End is cool and a nice riff on his Porsche alt mode. The feet in robot mode aren't the greatest, but someone at Hasbro realised the Stunticons are one team of figures where the alt and robot modes are equally as important, so I don't mind that Breakdown is just a minor retool of Wildrider, a mould I thought was great anyway, so don't mind having another of.

The G2 version of Dead End I picked up does seem to have some trouble with the legs staying together in vehicle mode, so I'm not quite sure what that's about. There seems to be some 'just so' configuration where it sits flush and all pegs together neatly, so sometimes I transforms it and it's fine, other times it's not. The bright red and metallic paints on this do make it look awesome though. Don't know if I'll be all in on a second set of Stunticons (missed out on the hard to find Speedia Shaodwstrip for one thing), but if any others show up in the Toxitron series, I'll likely pick them up.

[Clay]

A bit of a non-sequitur (though we are talking about G2 decos), and maybe not the right thread, but it would seem that Denyer's affinity for robot Tyrannosaurs has reached a certain referential status. Sure, they'll say it's named Denver because that's a city within its geological range, but I think we all know better.

[Denyer]

They're about 35 years behind the cool kids but I'll take what I can get.

[Clay]

Well, what do we think about the selection for the new Legacy figures? We've got a broad swath of series represented, and I feel that we in this thread should take full credit for it.

[Denyer]

https://news.tfw2005.com/2023/09/22/has ... cap-494818
https://news.tfw2005.com/2023/09/22/leg ... ave-494941
https://news.tfw2005.com/2023/09/23/stu ... ook-495181

I reckon the Studio Series Scrapheap beats all of them, although would have been interested in the Rock Lord wannabes if they turned into rocks rather than vehicles made out of rocks.

Do we think that Chase will be made into a non-combiner-team Streetwise?

Also there seems to be a SG pre-tool of Armada Wheeljack done from the thoroughly over-exposed Sideswipe mould? I'd go for a Wheeljack/Rampage if one shows up.

https://www.reddit.com/r/transformers/c ... wheeljack/