![[The Transformers Archive - an international fan site]](/common/skin/cardbackwide/tfarchive.png)
It's going to come up eventually, so...
How much damage do you suppose humans would be able to do to a Transformer?
And conversely, how much damage could a Transformer do to human vehicles, buildings or military equipment?
[New RPG] Transformers vs. Humans
-
Aero Blade
- Posts: 2582
- Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 2:16 am
- Location: Somewhere in subspace
- Contact:
Will all depend upon specific mechs, but I think the movie had it pretty much on par. Largely the transformers will be able to stomp/smash/blow up most human stuff far easier than the humans can them, but I doubt it'll take long before the humans start to figure out how to work around some things. Humans can probably take on one or two mechs if prepared, but they'd not be able to stand up to the whole of Autobot/Decepticon forces.
-
optimusskids
- Protoform
- Posts: 6981
- Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2004 11:24 am
- Location: UK
Movieverse. When the TFs have just arrived, even a single Transformer, what with being unexpected and stuff, can blow up an entire squad of humans.
But when the humans have recovered and begin pulling out all the stops, they can begin to hurt the TFs. Worse is to come if they reverse-engineer TF tech, which then would become sort of like IDW Ongoing or ROTF.
If little kids barely hitting puberty can knock down Transformers, though, I quit.
But when the humans have recovered and begin pulling out all the stops, they can begin to hurt the TFs. Worse is to come if they reverse-engineer TF tech, which then would become sort of like IDW Ongoing or ROTF.
If little kids barely hitting puberty can knock down Transformers, though, I quit.
Well, obviously a huge metallic warrior of death will blat just about anything on Earth and it's bwah-hah-hah all the way.
The Autobots might pull their punches, try to cripple weapons rather than hurt people, surrender or flee if the chance of killing is too high. That won't be the Decepticon mindset, since war machines will know it's more practical to take out both the weapon and the operator and the command centre.
As for humans hurting TFs? Very little chance of causing major problems for the really big hitters; depending on the ordnance, they could be damaged, but still function. Smaller TFs will, potentially, suffer badly given the type of attack they endure.
Reverse-engineering will have to be something we decide on at some point.
The Autobots might pull their punches, try to cripple weapons rather than hurt people, surrender or flee if the chance of killing is too high. That won't be the Decepticon mindset, since war machines will know it's more practical to take out both the weapon and the operator and the command centre.
As for humans hurting TFs? Very little chance of causing major problems for the really big hitters; depending on the ordnance, they could be damaged, but still function. Smaller TFs will, potentially, suffer badly given the type of attack they endure.
Reverse-engineering will have to be something we decide on at some point.
-
tahukanuva
- Posts: 1587
- Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 2:48 am
- Custom Title: Human After All
- Location: Kentucky, US
Yeah, I don't see say, Skywarp being too bothered by a local armory. Maybe annoying enough to make him leave, but wouldn't do any serious harm. Hound, however, would probably be a bit worse off.
Only in a super-surprise attack would I expect a Transformer to wipe out an entire military base and leave unscathed.
Only in a super-surprise attack would I expect a Transformer to wipe out an entire military base and leave unscathed.
-
Aero Blade
- Posts: 2582
- Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 2:16 am
- Location: Somewhere in subspace
- Contact:
The reverse engineering I agree would happen eventually, but it'd probably be late in the game, certainly not something to expect early on. Humans will be scrambling to survive at first, then start to figure things out to defend, then maybe to retaliate.
It'd probably start as scientists scavanging bits and pieces left over from battles, steadily working their way up the line until they work out enough things to attempt capturing a transformer (which will probably wind up being an Autobot, since they're not as likely to kill the woud-be captors). You know where it goes from there.
It'd probably start as scientists scavanging bits and pieces left over from battles, steadily working their way up the line until they work out enough things to attempt capturing a transformer (which will probably wind up being an Autobot, since they're not as likely to kill the woud-be captors). You know where it goes from there.
Or the humans might discover a discarded TF weapon. Hey, if you're in a war you don't keep track of every weapon yoy have, right? I mean, like, when humans do a war they don't expect badgers and bears that come across a discarded handgun to be able to replicate them and hunt down humans with them.
I've always thought of an analog like fighting a bee's nest. A human can destroy a bee's nest and kill all the bees relatively easily as long as he's got the equipment (bug spray) and the element of surprise. But if the bees round up and begin stinging you all over, you'll be an idiot not to leave. It won't kill you unless you have allergics, but it hurts and itches.
Again, not a perfect analog. Bees can't reverse-engineer bug spray to kill us.
I've always thought of an analog like fighting a bee's nest. A human can destroy a bee's nest and kill all the bees relatively easily as long as he's got the equipment (bug spray) and the element of surprise. But if the bees round up and begin stinging you all over, you'll be an idiot not to leave. It won't kill you unless you have allergics, but it hurts and itches.
Again, not a perfect analog. Bees can't reverse-engineer bug spray to kill us.
-
optimusskids
- Protoform
- Posts: 6981
- Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2004 11:24 am
- Location: UK
I expect the humans to suffer it would be the equivalent of Modern Tech versus flintlock muskets . Also given the range of transformers weapons it would be an interesting challenge to reverse engineer weaponry from it scientists would have to much diverse data.
Crosshairs and Doublecross must wake up in a cold sweat given the lack of standardisation.
I imagine given the limited supplies they'll have brought with them weapons would be kept track of it's not as if they get get another one from the factory.
On a tangent it would be interesting to emphasise that it would give humans a slight advantage and move away from energon being a magic substance used from everything from a food stuff to ammunition. Transformers would have to conserve resources and engineer replacements from the local tech base plus what they have on board their ships. When ammunition for Starscream null rays s gone its gone and he'll have to have standard lasers like everyone else.
Crosshairs and Doublecross must wake up in a cold sweat given the lack of standardisation.
I imagine given the limited supplies they'll have brought with them weapons would be kept track of it's not as if they get get another one from the factory.
On a tangent it would be interesting to emphasise that it would give humans a slight advantage and move away from energon being a magic substance used from everything from a food stuff to ammunition. Transformers would have to conserve resources and engineer replacements from the local tech base plus what they have on board their ships. When ammunition for Starscream null rays s gone its gone and he'll have to have standard lasers like everyone else.
I've never understood the idea behind humans reverse-engineering TF tech, to be honest. If the Transformers are so advanced that humans can't hurt them without using Transformer tech, then trying to reverse-engineer it would be akin to an engineer from the 1500s trying to build their own F-22. They wouldn't even understand what they were looking at, let alone what to do with it.
Small arms probably wouldn't do much other than breaking windows/scratching paint, but shoulder-mounted RPGs or heavy machine guns are going to hurt some (how much would depend on the Transformer's Endurance rating). Tank rounds, artillery or missiles from a fighter jet would hurt a lot, but probably won't kill a TF unless they take repeated hits. Cruise missiles or large airborne bombs could probably cripple or outright kill with a direct hit, but then you'd be talking about serious collateral damage against your own civilian population. That's how I see it, anyway.
Yeah, pretty much. Our weapons would be inferior, no doubt, but they should still be able to do something against Transformers. The watchword for the human armies would probably be 'overkill', but I doubt Transformers would be able to just shrug off an artillery barrage or a strafing run from a fighter jet.optimusskids wrote:I expect the humans to suffer it would be the equivalent of Modern Tech versus flintlock muskets.
Small arms probably wouldn't do much other than breaking windows/scratching paint, but shoulder-mounted RPGs or heavy machine guns are going to hurt some (how much would depend on the Transformer's Endurance rating). Tank rounds, artillery or missiles from a fighter jet would hurt a lot, but probably won't kill a TF unless they take repeated hits. Cruise missiles or large airborne bombs could probably cripple or outright kill with a direct hit, but then you'd be talking about serious collateral damage against your own civilian population. That's how I see it, anyway.
-
Aero Blade
- Posts: 2582
- Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 2:16 am
- Location: Somewhere in subspace
- Contact:
Agreed with most of the above, but looks like I need to add a bit to my reverse-engineering bit. Clearly they humans would be able to hurt them with a big enough gun (I have my doubts anyone could stand up to a nuke), but we strike the problem of massive collateral damage.
They way I see reverse-engineering being employed is by those wanting to find a way to neutralize the transformers without the chance of going into a big incident. If you figure out how they work, you can figure out more subtle ways to incapacitate or kill them. Those that are analying the tech to reverse-engineer , it would be less of a weapon-making technique and more of looking for transformer-equivalent biological warfare weaknesses. Why build tons of bombs and blow up your continent to get rid of them, when a virus can shut them down and leave you plenty of spare parts to use for your own purposes? The bees don't have to send their entire hive to repell an intruder if they can figure out how to make someone alergic to a single sting.
They way I see reverse-engineering being employed is by those wanting to find a way to neutralize the transformers without the chance of going into a big incident. If you figure out how they work, you can figure out more subtle ways to incapacitate or kill them. Those that are analying the tech to reverse-engineer , it would be less of a weapon-making technique and more of looking for transformer-equivalent biological warfare weaknesses. Why build tons of bombs and blow up your continent to get rid of them, when a virus can shut them down and leave you plenty of spare parts to use for your own purposes? The bees don't have to send their entire hive to repell an intruder if they can figure out how to make someone alergic to a single sting.
-
Heinrad
- Posts: 6282
- Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2001 5:00 am
- Location: Riskin' it all on my Russian Roulette!
Could humans reverse engineer TF tech? Ehhhhhh.......... not to the level of building Walther P-38 sized fusion cannons, certainly.
Let's take Kup's musket laser rifle as an example because I happen to have looked over at the figure when I started typing). Ignoring the fact that it's illogical to us(unless we all missed those scenes of Kup using a ramrod to shove a little ball of light down the barrel of his rifle after each shot...... That being said, did we actually see him shoot that much? And what did Recoil think?) as we perceive the musket type of weapon. It could be a reference to how the energy cell is loaded in.
Starting to wander..... anyway, it's basically just a standard, if old, laser rifle. In the broadest technical terms, there isn't a huge amount of development between a musket and a modern rifle. Trigger gets pulled, power ignites, slug is flung forward. We've already cracked laser technology. If Kup dropped his rifle and humans recovered and studied it, what they'd likely get out of it is a better understanding of power. Given a few decades, we might get a vehicle portable one(unless we luck out and Wheeljack gives up an ultra compact nuclear reactor or something), but the best our science would get are hints.
Let's take Kup's musket laser rifle as an example because I happen to have looked over at the figure when I started typing). Ignoring the fact that it's illogical to us(unless we all missed those scenes of Kup using a ramrod to shove a little ball of light down the barrel of his rifle after each shot...... That being said, did we actually see him shoot that much? And what did Recoil think?) as we perceive the musket type of weapon. It could be a reference to how the energy cell is loaded in.
Starting to wander..... anyway, it's basically just a standard, if old, laser rifle. In the broadest technical terms, there isn't a huge amount of development between a musket and a modern rifle. Trigger gets pulled, power ignites, slug is flung forward. We've already cracked laser technology. If Kup dropped his rifle and humans recovered and studied it, what they'd likely get out of it is a better understanding of power. Given a few decades, we might get a vehicle portable one(unless we luck out and Wheeljack gives up an ultra compact nuclear reactor or something), but the best our science would get are hints.
As a professional tanuki (I'm a Japanese mythological animal, and a good luck charm), I have an alarm clock built into me somewhere. I also look like a stuffed animal. And you thought your life was tough......
3DS Friend Code: 1092-1274-7642
3DS Friend Code: 1092-1274-7642
I've always thought the only way humans could realistically battle Transformers is that if they have Transformer backing behind them, like the Machination in IDW comics (the original Skywatch didn't, which is why they were stupid. The second Skywatch are total jackasses and they don't count.). Say, some rogue Decepticon -- Scorponok or Tarantulas or whomever -- gets to work with a bunch of rogue human military unit/terrorist unit akin to MECH or Machination or Cobra, it wouldn't be much of a leap for them to share weaponry to them. Guys as crazy as the 'Cons would surely do that.
While the Autobots? 'WE HAF WITNESSED YOUR HU-MAN CAPACITY FOR WAR. EET WILL SURELY DO MORE HARM THAN GOOD.'
While the Autobots? 'WE HAF WITNESSED YOUR HU-MAN CAPACITY FOR WAR. EET WILL SURELY DO MORE HARM THAN GOOD.'
-
Brave Maximus
- Posts: 5877
- Joined: Sat Jun 08, 2002 11:50 pm
- Location: Gehenna
I have to agree with Blackjack's viewing on it.
More mercinary minded Cons could certianly "share" tech with humans in return for resources, labs, energy, etc.
Hell, these Cons could even set up factories for them - with fail safes of course - to get what they want.
Some of the less... moral countries, or those with a legit enemy (China, North Korea, Taliban Run Afgahnistan, Russia, etc) - would be willing to give them quite a bit.
I'd say that North Korea and Russia would be the two most legit targets for something like this - with Russia being the better choice. Old War Dogs looking to regain the glory of Mother Russia, to have the world quake at the name of the Red Menace again. And they have the resources.
On the other side of it, Autobot-allied countries could actually find themselves at a serious dis-advantage. Autobots would be unwilling to share on that kind of level, but they still have to fight a signifigantly advanced opponent. Furthermore - I can't imagine the Bots wanting to get involved in human warfare.
That being said, I don't thing current technology is going to leave us defenceless against Transformers Tech.
I think the movies got this one right, actually. Most Transformer armour, while practically impervious to most small arms fire, would be vulnerable to Artillary and Mortar fire. Vehicle mounted Missles, even Bazookas and RPG's could do damage to most Light Armoured Transformers. Those built for war, and Transformers like Megs, Optimus, Grimlock, etc, would pretty much appear indistructable. For those guys, though, just need to get creative. A shape/Limpit charge placed in a joint could do some serious damage. Optics, and other soft targets are always good choices
Humans would just need to step up some forms of military Tech. High Explosive Incindiary (HEI), High Explosive Armour Piercing (HEAP) High Explosive Anti-Tank (HEAT) rounds would need to be miniturized for squad use, As well as looking into things like Rail Weapons (We've been using the technology for decades to propel linear or Bullet trains. Just need to make it work as a weapon system. Not even megs would want to stand in the way of a 20lb Metal slug travelling at Mach 2).
My question is: How much human action do we want in this RPG? Are humans going to be an annoying side thing that crops up every once and a while, OR is this going to be like the Movie-verse, or more? Humans and Transformers working side by side on a regular basis?
More mercinary minded Cons could certianly "share" tech with humans in return for resources, labs, energy, etc.
Hell, these Cons could even set up factories for them - with fail safes of course - to get what they want.
Some of the less... moral countries, or those with a legit enemy (China, North Korea, Taliban Run Afgahnistan, Russia, etc) - would be willing to give them quite a bit.
I'd say that North Korea and Russia would be the two most legit targets for something like this - with Russia being the better choice. Old War Dogs looking to regain the glory of Mother Russia, to have the world quake at the name of the Red Menace again. And they have the resources.
On the other side of it, Autobot-allied countries could actually find themselves at a serious dis-advantage. Autobots would be unwilling to share on that kind of level, but they still have to fight a signifigantly advanced opponent. Furthermore - I can't imagine the Bots wanting to get involved in human warfare.
That being said, I don't thing current technology is going to leave us defenceless against Transformers Tech.
I think the movies got this one right, actually. Most Transformer armour, while practically impervious to most small arms fire, would be vulnerable to Artillary and Mortar fire. Vehicle mounted Missles, even Bazookas and RPG's could do damage to most Light Armoured Transformers. Those built for war, and Transformers like Megs, Optimus, Grimlock, etc, would pretty much appear indistructable. For those guys, though, just need to get creative. A shape/Limpit charge placed in a joint could do some serious damage. Optics, and other soft targets are always good choices
Humans would just need to step up some forms of military Tech. High Explosive Incindiary (HEI), High Explosive Armour Piercing (HEAP) High Explosive Anti-Tank (HEAT) rounds would need to be miniturized for squad use, As well as looking into things like Rail Weapons (We've been using the technology for decades to propel linear or Bullet trains. Just need to make it work as a weapon system. Not even megs would want to stand in the way of a 20lb Metal slug travelling at Mach 2).
My question is: How much human action do we want in this RPG? Are humans going to be an annoying side thing that crops up every once and a while, OR is this going to be like the Movie-verse, or more? Humans and Transformers working side by side on a regular basis?
-
Springer85
- Protoform
- Posts: 1327
- Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 8:21 pm
- Location: All your base
- Contact:
-
Brave Maximus
- Posts: 5877
- Joined: Sat Jun 08, 2002 11:50 pm
- Location: Gehenna
Personally, I'm all for it.
I think it would be awesome if we could pick one or two additional Human characters and run with them.
See how they interact in the "real world" and having TF's present in their lives.
That being said, I think it should just be regular humans. No superheroes, no mages or what not. Psychics... on a limited level, I can see...
But considering how I'm setting Ginrai up... I'm all for humans.
Second question, though:
Is how to limit them. I think if it were opened up in general, we'd see a lot of "Snake eyes" and other strangeness....
I think it would be awesome if we could pick one or two additional Human characters and run with them.
See how they interact in the "real world" and having TF's present in their lives.
That being said, I think it should just be regular humans. No superheroes, no mages or what not. Psychics... on a limited level, I can see...
But considering how I'm setting Ginrai up... I'm all for humans.
Second question, though:
Is how to limit them. I think if it were opened up in general, we'd see a lot of "Snake eyes" and other strangeness....
This I doubt. It would probably be impossible to produce Cybertronian technology with human factories. Or rather, it would be possible but first you would have to teach the humans to build the machines they'd need to run the factories, and the machines they'd need to make those machines, repeated ad nauseum and all the while making sure you don't give away the physics behind any it, lest you vault human science forward a few thousand years inside of a night or two. Probably a lot more trouble than it's worth, in other words.Brave Maximus wrote:Hell, these Cons could even set up factories for them - with fail safes of course - to get what they want.
Personally, I'd like to see humans get involved in the story when we get to Earth. How they get involved depends a lot, I think, on what's going on when the Transformers get there.Brave Maximus wrote:I think it would be awesome if we could pick one or two additional Human characters and run with them.
In a previous thread we decided we wanted the Transformers to show up in the near- to mid-future. opskids also suggested having a major conflict going on when they do. He was thinking of arriving in the past and having the Transformers interrupt World War One...but what if they arrive in the 2030s and interrupt World War Three?
Well, since Snake Eyes fought in Vietnam he'd be in his mid-70s at the youngest by 2030...Brave Maximus wrote:Is how to limit them. I think if it were opened up in general, we'd see a lot of "Snake eyes" and other strangeness....
