[New RPG] Faith and Religion

[Clogs]

If he could gain control of the master spark computer, he could potentially try using it to produce an army of loyal super-power troops for his purposes.

With potentially horrible results - since Vector Sigma would be used to encode into any soldier rather than the best suited ones. Although, given, Megs might just serendipitiously get the combination of Spark and code right.

However, the resulting failures (mutants?) might just have what it takes to survive in a radioactive wasteland if driven or abandoned there by Megatron. And they would not be loyal Decepticons or have Autobot inclinations.

[Warcry]

I think this is an absolutely terrible idea, to be honest. Almost all of the special abilities you're talking about are things that are explicitly based on technology and equipment already. Mirage can turn invisible because he has an electro-disruptor gun. Starscream (and Whirl, and Marissa Fairborne...) have null ray guns. Rumble can cause earthquakes because his arms transform into piledrivers. Trailbreaker can create forcefields because he's got a projector bolted onto the back of his head. Hound has a hologram gun, etc, etc...

Transformers are robots. They're technology incarnate. Why in the world would we ignore existing, perfectly rational technological explanations for mundane technological phenomena in favour of "it's magic"?

I'm sorry, but this doesn't make any sense at all to me. You're talking about ignoring one of the few things that makes Transformers stand out from the crowd, and replacing it with a generic fantasy handwave.

[Brave Maximus]

I agree with Warcry on this one...

I can see accessing Vector Sigma for things like Triple/Sixchangers, Combiners, Pretender and Master technologies....
Taking away, or even starting off character without their signature special abilities in favour of giving them "mystically" seems a bit much.
Even the church would be all for individual TF's, to fulfill roles and not just a series of stamped out drones....

One exception though, to this, that I may suggest:

What about the Decepticons ability to fly, while Autobots can't?
Certianly I can see this as a reasonable excuse for this massive division.

(Just a quick one. I don't want to sound like a mod or anything... Just... when you're the boss at work, boss of an LS, etc... I think it's just my writing style now... sorry >< I just wanted to put my 2 cents in...)

[Aero Blade]

I'm not intending to pitch it as "mystical" but its clear we have guys who have abilities that others do not. If there wasn't some sort of reason why they all have different abilities, what's to preven Megatron from having taken the best pieces off of his troops and installing it onto himself? Clearly there is some pieces of tech that work for some but not for others. Whether it be something they were built with or imbuned with, it's not something that can easily be replicated, and can't be attributed to technology alone.

[Blackjack]

I'll admit it does take things a bit apart, but what I'm saying is that Vector Sigma would basically contain the key to produce those weapons or the power chips or whatever to allow guys like Mirage to disappear. Something like an explanation why we have ordinary guys like Jazz and Prowl, while people like Shrapnel and Soundwave are able to control electricity and read minds respectively.

It's always been something of a grating problem to me, TBH. If the Autobots have access to invisibility guns, hologram guns, smokescreens, forcefield generators, magnetic powers etc, why don't all these powers be installed in one Autobot? He would literally be able to quash the entire Decepticon army, as well as vice versa. Like in Heavy Metal War, only that's the other way around and Megatron didn't kill Prime outright.

Maybe Vector Sigma has the software/the blueprints for these kind of the hardware required for the wackier superpowers (say, Skywarp's teleportation or Soundwave's mind reading abilities) while we leave more mundane stuff like Rumble's pildedrivers alone.

Just a thought, though.

[Warcry]

If there wasn't some sort of reason why they all have different abilities, what's to preven Megatron from having taken the best pieces off of his troops and installing it onto himself?

He did. I don't think this would be a serious threat in any universe that puts thought into things like that, though. Without getting into how silly the cartoon episode actually was, the biggest problem with trying to do that is that you'd run out of energy very, very quickly. I don't think it would be possible for a normal-sized Transformer to effectively use more than one or two special abilities at once. Citybots and the like could, and actually do: Metroplex and Trypticon each have quite a few special weapons but they've got the size (and more importantly, the power supply) to use them.

Clearly there is some pieces of tech that work for some but not for others. Whether it be something they were built with or imbuned with, it's not something that can easily be replicated, and can't be attributed to technology alone.

Of course it can. They're machines. Everything about them is technological.

It's always been something of a grating problem to me, TBH. If the Autobots have access to invisibility guns, hologram guns, smokescreens, forcefield generators, magnetic powers etc, why don't all these powers be installed in one Autobot? He would literally be able to quash the entire Decepticon army, as well as vice versa. Like in Heavy Metal War, only that's the other way around and Megatron didn't kill Prime outright.

Why doesn't every soldier in a real-life army fly around in an F-22 or drive an M1 Abrams tank? Different troops have different roles, and they've got the equipment they need to carry out those roles. In a perfect world everyone would have electrodisruptors to become invisible/project holograms, or fusion cannons to blow their enemies away in one hit, or sensors that are sensitive enough to read electrical impulses from a brain. But it takes time, money, raw materials and energy to produce any of those things -- and if you're spending resources on that you're not making the medical scanners, fuel sensors or terrain-tracking computers that you need for your support units.

Since virtually every Transformer has one special ability or weapon, I don't think it's a big deal. There were probably dozens or hundreds or people with that power at some point, but they all died during the war and the facilities for building more of them were almost certainly destroyed too.

[Brave Maximus]

Of course it can. They're machines. Everything about them is technological.

I don't know... we may all be able to agree that the spark is a bit mystical and non-mechanical in nature....

[Aero Blade]

He did.

He didn't. The machine did it for him, and it was temporary. He's not still running around with those powers. He still had to have the original bots to begin with.

But it takes time, money, raw materials and energy to produce any of those things

It takes something else, though, the skill and knowledge of how to use such items or techniques. Everyone can be taught the knowledge, but not everyone can use the objects with the kind of effectiveness that everyone else can. Those in the army aren't just thrown into their roles because they need someone there, but because they've also shown at least a basic competency in what they do. 5 soldiers can shoot a gun, but one of them is an absurdly good marksman, so you pull him out, give him a riffle, and make him a sniper. You can take a desk-working tactician and eventually teach him to weild the gun with quite a bit of work, but that doesn't mean he'll ever beat the sniper at target practice.

In humans it would probably be the breeding, something in the dna that has given you an inclination to be able to do something else better than someone else merely because you were born with the trait or skill. In transformers, it may be that little bit of coding, that little change Vector Sigma made to that particular bot to make it different from someone else. This is also why they're brought online with the tech that they do, because they're the ones most apt to be able to use that stuff skillfully. Yes, it is technology, it could be copied and given to soemone else, but that doesn't mean that the new bot will be any better at it than the one who had it originally. The one is who they're meant to be because that is just how they were made.

In regards to the above plot, my meantion was meant to just be an idea, that Megatron might try it because he thinks it, not because it is. Control of Vector Sigma, regardless of unsual properties or no, is still a major accomplishment and advantage. If he controls the source of new bots, that means no reinforcements for Autobots, or any other rebell groups that might defy him.

I don't know... we may all be able to agree that the spark is a bit mystical and non-mechanical in nature....

Agreed. Sparks are clearly a very important part of transformers, and if there were any special traits or inclinations like I've meantioned above, it'd be in the sparks, not the tech. Bludgeon and his force-like metallicato powers come to mind, which he and a rare few others get through long, pacient training and a bit of natural inclination, not a particular set of circuitry build into them.

[Clogs]

(I'm sorry if I sounded like I support V.S. handing out anything 'mystical' - just enabling/supplying some specialised programming, perhaps activating some perfect CNA sequence that happens only every so often (hence you can get mechs with similar if not identical powers, or even some in which the activation fails and remains dormant).

That is not to say that specific design, such as Mirage's, isn't going to be the usual method of creating abilities. Where there's the shranix or other means available, such as the need for specialism.

And I just wanted to suggest a possible explanation for survivors of the coming chaos...)

[Aero Blade]

Agreed again. Not aiming at it to be mystical, just not easily duplicatable. Something that can't be fully understood or done by the small transformer processor, but something easily managed by the giant supercomputer that is Vector Sigma.

[Warcry]

I don't know... we may all be able to agree that the spark is a bit mystical and non-mechanical in nature....

Be that as it may, sparks have about as much place in a discussion of anatomy as souls do in a biology textbook. They're completely different things.

He didn't.

He took the equipment that gave the other Decepticons those powers and plugged them into himself. He had full access to all of the powers at once while his troops were powerless (well, without special abilities anyway). And since they got their powers back later, he obviously gave the chips back. If that isn't the precise definition of "Megatron [taking] the best pieces off of his troops and installing it onto himself" I don't know what is.

It takes something else, though, the skill and knowledge of how to use such items or techniques. Everyone can be taught the knowledge, but not everyone can use the objects with the kind of effectiveness that everyone else can. Those in the army aren't just thrown into their roles because they need someone there, but because they've also shown at least a basic competency in what they do. 5 soldiers can shoot a gun, but one of them is an absurdly good marksman, so you pull him out, give him a riffle, and make him a sniper. You can take a desk-working tactician and eventually teach him to weild the gun with quite a bit of work, but that doesn't mean he'll ever beat the sniper at target practice.

He will if you give him the right parts and upgrades. If a Transformer doesn't have the physical capacity to do something they can be upgraded so they do. And if they don't have the knowledge to do it we've seen information transferred directly into a Transformer's brain before.

Whether it's necessary, cost-effective or even possible with the resources available is an entirely different question (and I'd guess the answer is usually a resounding 'no'). E.g., Mirage being who he is his electrodisruptor probably cost him more than the average robot would earn in their lifetime, much like Iron Man and his suit.

We could ignore the heaps of perfectly-rational explanations that we already have in favour of a gigantic metaphysical handwave, but why? It doesn't add anything new, the problem you're trying to address is already explained and it would make all of the scientific plotlines we've talked about impossible.

Agreed. Sparks are clearly a very important part of transformers, and if there were any special traits or inclinations like I've meantioned above, it'd be in the sparks, not the tech.

Special abilities were already explained technologically in the characters' bios. In most cases, over twenty years ago now.

Bludgeon and his force-like metallicato powers come to mind, which he and a rare few others get through long, pacient training and a bit of natural inclination, not a particular set of circuitry build into them.

Other than one display mild telekinesis, Bludgeon has shown absolutely zero "force-like powers" in anything official. He can generate electricity as a weapon and some versions have a stealth field, but he's basically a samurai. And his abilities are almost all explained technologically in his various bios.

As much as I like what Heinrad has done with the guy, it has about as much basis in canon as Gigatron being in G1 does.

Agreed again. Not aiming at it to be mystical, just not easily duplicatable. Something that can't be fully understood or done by the small transformer processor, but something easily managed by the giant supercomputer that is Vector Sigma.

How does "something imparted by the giant disco ball that our pitiful minds can't comprehend" not translate into "mystical"? Either it's technology or it's not. If it's technology then it can be pulled apart, studied and replicated given enough time and effort. If it can't be, then it's magic. There's really no middle ground between the two.

[Aero Blade]

1.) You're telling me a tiny chip is entirely responsible for major abilities like teleporting and null rays? Why does screamer even need the whole weapon, he could blast them out his eyes G1 has way too many plotholes and loopholes, ones big enough for Unicron to fall through

2.) I'm reminded of Prowl from Animated, who's had similar training and his throwing around force-like powers, and he's cannon
Edit/add: I recall also a comic where Blugeon used his powers to pull his sword to him, I can probably dig it up somewhere if I figure out where I put it. So he does have 'force-like' telekenetic powers

3.) We won't be spending all that time on Cybertron, so we could probably just shelve most of the above and sum it up that Vector Sigma make sparks and builds their first body.

4.) Wasn't this a Religion thread? What place does anatomy have in it? We need a separate thread for this

[Brave Maximus]

Be that as it may, sparks have about as much place in a discussion of anatomy as souls do in a biology textbook. They're completely different things.

And... this is just me being me and throwing monkey wrenches into things

Where as a human soul has nothing definable or even identifiable (except the concept that we all emmit an electric field that can be measured and quantified, through things like Alpha, Beta and Gamma waves preasent in humans while alive but immediatly cease once death happens, even though we have a mild electric charge that remains within the body for weeks and even months) - the Spark, in and of itself is completely tangent.

Transformers have a Spark Chamber (or laser core or what ever we want to call it this week) - they can actually pull out and see their soul (or at the very least, the souls of others). It is right there.

In the context of this conversation: Religion would be a lot easier for Transformers. They have no doubt that they have a soul. They have no doubt where they come from and can even glimpse the Allspark through Vector Computers and the Oracle (and I would assume through other, less tangable methods, like meditation). They know that they have a creator, not just of their spark, but of their design and race. They know that there really is a plan and a purpose. They also know that there really is a Satan lurking in the dark corners of the world.

But with this easy faith, comes easy manipulation. Religion is called the Opiate of the Masses for a reason. It's easy to follow the person who is talking for God, than to think for yourself. Perhaps at some points the church has abused this absolute power and devotion.

Perhaps, like so many humans, as years go by without direct contact from either God or Satan, they start to question and doubt. Not that there is a God or Satan, but weither they really care about an individual and what they do with their lives. If they do something not good, and Unicron doesn't show up and eat them all - well, maybe they can do more and more. And if they can do that - what else has the church been wrong about?

Then, you have Megatron nailing Protests on the door of the church, Shockwave suggesting that Cybertron isn't the center of the universe, Energon Cubes dropping on Jetfires head, and Perceptor taking an Energon Bath before shout Eureka!!!


I think I'm done for now... maybe.

[Warcry]

1.) You're telling me a tiny chip is entirely responsible for major abilities like teleporting and null rays? Why does screamer even need the whole weapon, he could blast them out his eyes G1 has way too many plotholes and loopholes, ones big enough for Unicron to fall through

It's the cartoon. I never said it was going to make sense. Just imagine what Megatron would have looked like if the plot had made more sense.

2.) I'm reminded of Prowl from Animated, who's had similar training and his throwing around force-like powers, and he's cannon
Edit/add: I recall also a comic where Blugeon used his powers to pull his sword to him, I can probably dig it up somewhere if I figure out where I put it. So he does have 'force-like' telekenetic powers

Like I said, that only happened once. None of his other appearances had even a hint of the supernatural. Starscream's probably the closest we can get to supernatural, looking at G1. Animated's a different story obviously, and there's probably a different conversation entirely to be had about how much of that we'd like to include, if any.

3.) We won't be spending all that time on Cybertron, so we could probably just shelve most of the above and sum it up that Vector Sigma make sparks and builds their first body.

Honestly I doubt it'll come up at all, and we probably won't need to say anything. I just like debating things like this, is all.

4.) Wasn't this a Religion thread? What place does anatomy have in it? We need a separate thread for this

Probably yes.

In the context of this conversation: Religion would be a lot easier for Transformers.

The thing is, though...it doesn't seem like we want that. A lot of what we've been talking about would call for atheism to be reasonable and widespread, and it's hardly reasonable not to believe in god when you can flip open your chest panel and see your soul. Official sources swing back and forth on whether sparks are physical or ephemeral from series to series and even episode to episode depending on what best fits the plot, and so far I'm thinking that non-physical sparks fit the plot we've been discussing a lot better. Although like a lot of things, really it'll probably never come up.

[Brave Maximus]

The thing is, though...it doesn't seem like we want that. A lot of what we've been talking about would call for atheism to be reasonable and widespread, and it's hardly reasonable not to believe in god when you can flip open your chest panel and see your soul. Official sources swing back and forth on whether sparks are physical or ephemeral from series to series and even episode to episode depending on what best fits the plot, and so far I'm thinking that non-physical sparks fit the plot we've been discussing a lot better. Although like a lot of things, really it'll probably never come up.

Just because you believe in God (because you can see your spark) doesn't mean you are in any way religious or follow the church. How many Catholics use condoms? Or... you know... all the other things they''re not allowed to do.

I think the idea of the Church falling by the wayside to a more "enlightened" age (Cause... you know, mass war and destruction is more enlightened).

I was starting to run on at the mouth.... so I deleted it.
Mostly because I'm agreeing with you in a very long winded fashion (other than the fact that I've always thought a spark chamber and visible spark are very cool)

But just to have things clear in my head:

We have a church that controls the Vector Computers and the Oracle and crap like that.

We have another group who is doing research that the church considers heretical.

We have a population that couldn't care less one way or the other, until they get dragged into a war that will leave the vast majority of them dead.

That about the long and short of it?

I know this is a faith/religion thread, but let me ask:

What about government: Are the Primes choosen by the church, elected by the people or...?

I like the idea of Megs actually getting elected by his peers to lead the movement because of his charisma - and the idea of a Gladiator leading a group of scientists is pretty damn cool