Networking Transformers Discussion

[snavej]

I got the trade paperback [of Last Stand of the Wreckers] recently. All in all, it was very nicely done: adverbially excellent. There was a supplementary story at the end that JR had worked hard to write. There are so many in-jokes. One might say that this series was a long, convoluted way to send Verity back home to the USA. Great work has been shoe-horned into a .... um ... special ... continuity.

Why, I wonder, was the Aequitas computer needed to determine guilt if the Autobots are such networked beings? There should be few secrets if thoughts are regularly shared between Autobots. Commanders should have privileged access to their troops' minds if foul play is to be detected. Decepticon minds are probably not too difficult to read either if commanders have plenty of hacking assistance from their loyal troops. Security programming is only as strong as the mind(s) supporting it. In this story, Fortress Maximus was used as a lock-pick device against a security programme.

I was a little surprised that so many bullets managed to penetrate Overlord's armour and explode inside him. However, the Cybertronian arms race (concerning technical improvements) is intense and such tide-turning moments are to be expected now and then.

What will Prowl do with all that incriminating evidence? Who is Tyrest really? Oh, the suspense! Dan-dan-daaaah!

Guess what? There's a real military radar defence system called 'Iron Fist':

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Fist_ ... ion_System

[Cliffjumper]

Gee, you reckon the military ripped off Transformers?


Or that the phrase "iron fist" has been in existence for probably a matter of centuries.

[Halfshell]

Or that the phrase "iron fist" has been in existence for probably a matter of centuries.

Yep. It's derived from the choices that wimmin were given in regards to housework.

[snavej]

It's that whole 'advanced weapons' theme. The real system detects and destroys incoming projectiles in a few seconds, I believe. The fictional one would seem to be dead now, but he was once very resourceful.

[inflatable dalek]

Whilst the justice computer was basically a big McGuffin (though according to Roberts at AA it's based on something the Australians are trying to do, create a computer that just sorts out low level fines and so on without any fuss) I'm not sure it contradicts anything we've seen in IDW before. If the Autobots were all mentally networked they'd have found out about Dealer, Beachcomber and Sunstreaker beforehand. And indeed have no doubts about Drift as they'd be able to see in his mind.

[snavej]

This whole lack-of-mental-networking among Autobots does give us plenty of drama but it is one major reason why many continuities can't be taken too seriously. (One might say that comics, at least, should be comic, not serious.) Autobots should be networked as much as possible because it would give them a huge strategic advantage, allowing them to stop treachery, minimise mistakes, coordinate everything extremely well and outperform the Decepticons in the long run. However, there should be exceptions to prevent data from falling into the wrong hands. The whole system would be extremely complex, so it's hard to say where the exceptions should come.

Decepticons are a different story. They need some networking to coordinate their efforts but they don't want too much. They want secrecy to carry on their nefarious activities, as we see in many humans in the real world.

Working together, the Autobots could use their strong 'group mind' to overwhelm Decepticon programming, seize data (secretly or otherwise) and thus outwit Decepticon strategists, leading to eventual Autobot victory. The Decepticons could try to develop their own 'group mind' but that would expose their own treachery and probably result in civil war in their ranks.

I just read 'Schrödinger's Kittens and the Search for Reality' by John Gribbin. In that book, Gribbin tells us about a recent physics theory concerning all the particles in the universe. Some scientists think that all particles emit and receive waves of some kind that have the ability to travel forward and backward in time. The ones that go backward in time are travelling faster than light. If they could be exploited, they could form the basis for FTL telepathy, allowing advanced people to coordinate their activities across wide areas of space: galaxies or even the whole universe. These waves could also enable people to develop teleportation, star drives, super-advanced weapons, etc. We are slowly edging into sci-fi territory.

[inflatable dalek]

Is that basically a long winded way of saying "Nope, the lack of mental networking isn't a plot hole in terms of how it relates to the rest of IDW, and indeed most Transformers fiction done to date?"

The Networking idea is a nice one hard SF one, but it has a number of drawbacks when applied to action adventure stuff like Transformers... or indeed the bulk of drama. If characters all instantly know what each other are thinking and don't have secrets from one another you basically lose the cauldron of most conflict that creates drama in the first place. So if everyone goes into this mission knowing Ironfist's dying, what Impactor really did, and on the last page Magnus would have known for sure what Prowl was going to do with the chip.

Plus, if you make the Autobots better run than the Decepticons you wind up with a cartoon situation where they look crap for never actually winning.

And how is this idea conveyed in the comic form? Basically loads of thought bubbles instead of speech ones. Not that much of a difference. It's a concept that can only really be done properly in well written prose.

...And unless you're planning to go all the way and make the Autobots a hive mind like the Borg there's still no guarantee the Autobots would all agree on someone's guilt or culpability, hence the need for trials and some sort of neutral judge.

So in short, on the list of things that should stop us taking Transformers to seriously this should be about 9845763673067306th place on the list.

[Halfshell]

Surely if they all know what the others are thinking, they by definition are thinking it to and all individuality and character is lost?* They become one big telepathic collective consciousness walking around in an army of bodies.

Which, let's face it, would be shit.

*Citaton: The Straxus clone that believed himself to be Megatron. You are your thoughts.

[inflatable dalek]

Plus you'd lose the need for a hierarchy structure because everyone's as good as everyone else, so bye bye Optimus Prime (assuming the idea is done properly and you don't end up with the redundancy of a Cyber Leader or Borg Queen).

The secret of what happened to Rack'n'Ruin for the sequel please.

[snavej]

I guess the world isn't ready for 'Borgised Transformers', though that is the logical way to go eventually, just as slow horse carriages gave way to motorised transport. The military advantage given would be irresistible. (Why are they fighting? Do they want to win or not?!) Leadership would be shared across the collective. Autobots would be prepared to sacrifice individuality (and drama) in order to protect others. Optimus, above all, would see the value of mental networking.

Borg vs. Transformers could be an interesting crossover. It's probably been done somewhere.

In the trade paperback, it was hinted that Rack 'n' Ruin got seriously ill. My condolences.

Rack 'n' Ruin vs. Jumpstarters: a friendly joust or a potential grudge match?!

Rack 'n' Ruin vs. Fish 'n' Chips: a nice meal.

[inflatable dalek]

It might be the most logical apporoach for "real life" otter space robot people to take but it just wouldn't make for good storytelling. taking the Borg example, even in their TNG heyday every single one of their episodes isn't just about this big one minded monster, there's a proper antagonist in there as well (Q, Locutus, Hugh [though he's more a protagonist] and Lore) who can be the face of the enemy and create the proper beats you need for drama. Same goes for just about every Cyberman story (there's always a mad general or a traitor) and, to widen the field even further, virtually every zombie film ever made has some added speaking part threat other than things that want to eat brains.

In short, heroes or villains who are all of one mind and act the same make good red shirts but can't carry a story of any length by themselves.

A very good hour long (!) interview with Roche and Roberts here, in which they do clarify that the prose story in the trade establishes the same extra character details about Pyro as his profile did in the individual issues, they don't regard anything in the other profiles as adding anything that would change the readers perception of the main book. Interestingly Roberts mentions trying hard to write character assessments rather than just a summary of what they have and haven't done, a lesson learnt from the BW Sourcebook where half the profiles were just episode synopses?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9DPbginVXE

Must watch the Furman interview at some point, the little mention of his main praise for LSotW being it following on from his stuff sounds nice and bitter and twisted.

[Warcry]

It might be the most logical apporoach for "real life" otter space robot people to take

Except it absolutely isn't. Unless they were built as a networked gestalt to start with (at which point they would be less of a 'they' and more of a 'he', a singular entity spread across multiple bodies) they would never, ever network themselves. The reason for that is simple: individuals want to be individuals. No one -- absolutely no one -- is going to give up their personality, their individual wants and needs, just to be a slightly more effective war machine. There's a reason why every species who met the Borg fought them so fiercely: the second you join the collective everything you are, were or ever will be is subsumed by the group mind and for all intents and purposes you're dead.

So I don't think a networked mind is logical at all. If it was there from the start there would be no characters, no war (since the collective couldn't fight itself any more than the two halves of Sky Lynx would have reason to fight) and no story. And if someone tried to impose it after the fact they would be considered a madman and what they were doing would be an atrocity.

[Cliffjumper]

Plus when has a mad logic gestalt thing ever won anything? They've been repeatedly shown to be inflexible, easy to surprise and ill-equipped to face those capable of making unpredictable opposition. If the Transformers had a network mind, someone as unhinged, irrational and stupid as Circuit Breaker would have taken the lot of them down. The logical way to win is to be illogical, that way computers can't work out what the **** you're going to do next. Think AoE: Shockwave, but less retarded.

[inflatable dalek]

Except it absolutely isn't.

Well, I was giving him the benefit of the doubt on that one until we meet some for real

Is there any fictional precedent for a "good" gestalt mind thingey as the lead characters? All the ones I can think of have been the villains.

[Cliffjumper]

Can come up with a couple of not-especially-evil ones - Legion off Red Dwarf, for example. Some of the more whacked-out stuff in Marvel What Ifs, maybe.

[inflatable dalek]

Mention of Legion- a character who's only as good/evil smart/stupid as the minds that make him, makes me wonder...

How would a collective Autobot intelligence manage to balance out the contradictory strong personalities? Prowl and Grimlock as an obvious example, even assuming the better Marvel era relationship where Grimlock's not a self conscious bad ass and Prowl's just sensible rather than a tosser any linking involving their minds would probably have a nervous breakdown.

And the various mindless drones controlled by one over reaching authority we have had over years- Sweeps, the Unicron era Terrorcons, Masterforce Seacons (exactly how much each of those and others match the definition is a case of YMMV but all are close enough)- haven't tended to do any better than anyone else.

[Halfshell]

If it was there from the start there would be no characters, no war (since the collective couldn't fight itself any more than the two halves of Sky Lynx would have reason to fight) and no story. And if someone tried to impose it after the fact they would be considered a madman and what they were doing would be an atrocity.

Is it lupus?

[Thunderwave]

Is there any fictional precedent for a "good" gestalt mind thingey as the lead characters? All the ones I can think of have been the villains.

I'm going out on a limb and going to mention Legion from Mass Effect 2. It's as main of a character as anyone on the ship that's not Shepard and it's definitely a Gestalt Mind situation, so much so that it lacks a name until given one.

(Yes I know Mass Effect 2 is a video game, but I like to consider it interactive fiction because there is a story, with a beginning, middle, end and character development along the way.)

Of course, now, we've got to define "good" in this situation. By that I assume you mean protagonist and not antagonist?

[inflatable dalek]

(Yes I know Mass Effect 2 is a video game, but I like to consider it interactive fiction because there is a story, with a beginning, middle, end and character development along the way.)

Oh, I don't think anyone's got the right to be smugly superior over the worth of the media used to tell the story in a thread about a comic based on toys.

Of course, now, we've got to define "good" in this situation. By that I assume you mean protagonist and not antagonist?

Yep, that's what I was thinking of. I'm not familiar with this example myself, but it sounds as if even with a fully formed hive mind character as a lead there's still more... for want of a better word... "Normal" protagonists in there with it (?) as part of the team.

[Cliffjumper]

The thing is in fiction the good points of networking can be used without the downside of a hive-mind - telepathy (e.g. the Authority) or implausibly reliable communications mixed with the ability to concentrate on the job in hand while receiving the information means all the good guys can be on the same page while remaining autonomous. The only thing you really need is a system which can't be picked up by someone else - a focused telepath or some sort of super secret frequency or whatever. A good reason for this not being used in Transformers is that the Decepticons have Soundwave, and the Autobots have Blaster - each side could find the information too easily.

The Transformers' various wars and battles are also often portrayed as stalemates unless there's an outstanding individual on one side or another. Deadlocks are broken by one side or another doing something a little different. Autobots and Decepticons are the same species, so a hive-mind of one is likely to end up much the same as a hive-mind of another. The Borg are a threat because they're living cyborg weapons in a hardcore Oxo cube of death up against fleshy chaps in flying saucers. If they were up against other Borg, neither side would be much of a threat to the other.