Networking Transformers Discussion

[snavej]

I can't claim networking as my own idea. It came from many other people, like William Gibson (Neuromancer, 1984).

In an ideal world, IDW and others would make up something to address this issue, at least briefly. It can potentially influence entire continuities.

[inflatable dalek]

I can't claim networking as my own idea. It came from many other people, like William Gibson (Neuromancer, 1984).

Yes, I know the idea in general isn't something you invented. That's not what I said.

In an ideal world, IDW and others would make up something to address this issue, at least briefly. It can potentially influence entire continuities.

How would it influence other continuities? That's like Hasbro's whole "The 13 are everywhere!" idea which everyone sensibly ignores when talking about, say, the Marvel comics.

Of course, it isn't going to get established or used by any version of the franchise with any sense because what it ends up with is basically not Transformers, or even good storytelling. And why would they address an issue when you're the only person who has that problem?

[Halfshell]

And why would they address and issue when you're the only person who has that problem?

So he can bump an old fanfic to point out the similarity?

[snavej]

Devastation: Starscream shut down Six Shot with a code. The code came from his memory, got transmitted, was received and then paralysed Six Shot. I think that counts as brain-to-brain communication. As far as I could tell, Six Shot was unconscious when he hit the ground, so I guess that the code did that too.

[Rurudyne]

Except it absolutely isn't. Unless they were built as a networked gestalt to start with (at which point they would be less of a 'they' and more of a 'he', a singular entity spread across multiple bodies) they would never, ever network themselves. The reason for that is simple: individuals want to be individuals. No one -- absolutely no one -- is going to give up their personality, their individual wants and needs, just to be a slightly more effective war machine. There's a reason why every species who met the Borg fought them so fiercely: the second you join the collective everything you are, were or ever will be is subsumed by the group mind and for all intents and purposes you're dead.

So I don't think a networked mind is logical at all. If it was there from the start there would be no characters, no war (since the collective couldn't fight itself any more than the two halves of Sky Lynx would have reason to fight) and no story. And if someone tried to impose it after the fact they would be considered a madman and what they were doing would be an atrocity.

^ this.

While the Autobots may chant "Till all are one!", and latter-BW Megs actually managed (after a fashion) to pull it off for a short time, it seems that Transformers are not especially dynamic individuals by design, but by either choice or as a result of something ineffable about sparks.

In a sense the opposite dynamic to Ghost in the Shell could be said to be in the works if some writer ever wanted to get philosophical about it. Unlike cybernetic humans (who started out as ordinary humans) tending towards a loss of individuality and potentially plagued by hackers who are more competent than the folks providing the (presumably very common) security updates, Cybertronians start with minimal opportunity for differentiation to begin with (the is especially true of chassis groups like the Decepticon jets) because they come on line as functional individuals ... Wheelie aside (who is somewhat of a mental case in most storylines) there is simply no evidence of Cybertronians "learning" how to be "adults" and without that a lot of the potential for true individuality is absent.

Another thing to consider is that the root source of Cybertronian anti-hack technology may be none other than Vector Sigma (at least in some versions of the franchise). That could have significant ramifications for the stability of individuality ... simply, they could be equipped with any number of blind spots, even a "you don't have security clearance for this" limitation when they want to mess around with hacking others minds (as opposed to "reading" them through some Cybertronian version of telepathy, which would be a special power).

[inflatable dalek]

Devastation: Starscream shut down Six Shot with a code. The code came from his memory, got transmitted, was received and then paralysed Six Shot. I think that counts as brain-to-brain communication. As far as I could tell, Six Shot was unconscious when he hit the ground, so I guess that the code did that too.

What, that's the best example you could come up with after several days of thought? Something presented as a straightforward "radio" (or rather the technobabble Transformers equivalent) transmission that most readers at the time found to be a really stupid idea (mainly because those sorts of codes would be changed constantly for security reasons, precisely to stop someone like Starscream who used to be important misusing them after falling from grace).

[Halfshell]

The code came from his memory, got transmitted, was received and then paralysed Six Shot. I think that counts as brain-to-brain communication.

There was a speech bubble. Talking is no more telepathy than ventilation is breathing.

[inflatable dalek]

There was a speech bubble. Talking is no more telepathy than ventilation is breathing.

*Click's fingers* That's right, it wasn't a "radio" thing at all, it was just shouting loudly. Which is why it seemed so stupid. The memory does cheat.

I suppose the closest thing to what snavej is thinking of is those occasions where the writer remembers there's no sound in space and has the Transformers talking via internal radio. And even then it's presented more as a walkie talkie than anything else.

Does anyone want some slightly damaged Lost DVD's? I think my Mother's going to want to sell them on after she's finished chucking them at the wall and shouting "STUPID!" at them.

[snavej]

I think that Starscream's override code was transmitted through electronic pulses rather than voice, since pulses are less likely to be distorted by such things as extraneous noise, explosions, mishearing and funny accents. [I have experienced this first hand when dealing with computers over the telephone: key pulses are usually better than voice, where there is a choice.] Override codes are a good idea to stop warriors going rogue, yet they would have to be guarded extremely well to prevent them falling into the wrong hands. Hacking attempts during a battle or other important operation would be a great way to distract and slow down the enemy, giving one time to launch a physical attack. Thus, even a failed attempt to establish a mental connection can be useful.

In the LSotW trade (text story), Fisitron uploads datalogs to an Autobot network and many other Autobots quickly download those datalogs directly into their brains, so Autobots trust him and the network not to hurt them. I guess that the security systems in this part of the network are rarely compromised. I hate to think what could have happened if Fisitron had been a deep-cover Decepticon agent. If Autobots are downloading from Fisitron, as a hobby, they are probably uploading to, and downloading from, many other colleagues. It would be just as easy to upload and download programmes as it is for plain text. (Programmes could even be encrypted inside plain text.) Such programmes could influence the thinking and functioning of Autobots.

Recently, many Autobot command networks were compromised by the Decepticons. The key element of this was the brain of Hunter O'Nion, which was connected to the brain of Sunstreaker for a while. Evidently, Sunstreaker had some quite high-level clearance. The Decepticons were able to download and use Autobot access codes but the Autobots couldn't stop them because they were taken by surprise. If the Autobots had been forewarned of the 'code grab' attempt, they could have blocked it. There would have been brain-on-brain conflict in the networks.

Looking at the 2007 movie, Frenzy found it easy to hack into the POTUS mainframe on Airforce One. He plugged himself in physically. If it was easy for him to do this, he must have had practice on other networks before he came to Earth. This high level of hacking indicates that he could probably hack much more complex networks, even Autobot networks if he found a vulnerability. I think that this is circumstantial evidence.

In the G1 comics, Optimus, Megatron, the Protectobots and the Combaticons found it easy to network and interact inside a human-built supercomputer. They couldn't read each others minds as individuals but the Protectobots managed to combine and perhaps form a gestalt mind (a network within a network). If they could do all this in a primitive Earth computer, they could certainly do it amongst themselves. The hardware and software are there but the sparks are reluctant.

Rurudyne has a good point about maturity. Networking comes into its own when one is mature and experienced enough to use it properly. Also, it takes time for people to exhaust the enjoyment of individuality. Furthermore, when one has always been a Transformer, one may have difficulty imagining other ways of life. Robust machines with long life spans can go on attacking each other for ages before they start to see the futility of it. Binary bonding with organic creatures provides insights into other lives and could eventually lead to major changes in Transformer society. Ideas can be very persistent entities. Time will tell.

[Halfshell]

I think that Starscream's override code was transmitted through electronic pulses rather than voice

There was a speech bubble Oh what's the ****ing point.

[Cliffjumper]

There was a speech bubble Oh what's the ****ing point.

Easiest ways to win any discussion -

• Refuse to acknowledge any points that contradict your theory, even if it requires outright denial.
• Type big, long, meandering boxes of text that aren't really about anything. Most people's brains will shut down while reading your pretentious clap-trap, prevent counter-arguments.
• Getting completely fixated on one far-fetched idea and consistently interpreting anything you come across as backing it up even if it's not remotely the case - bonus points if there are several thousand contradicting points you choose to ignore.

Et voila! Tramp in a can.

[inflatable dalek]

Starscream sending the message by space radio would actually make more sense, but it's not what happened. Equally, I think Time Wars would have been cooler if present day Ultra Magnus had his final smack down with Megatron but no one would take me seriously if I started claiming it did happen.

This thread makes me miss Tramp.

[Rack 'n Ruin]

This thread makes me miss Tramp.

Are you SURE?

[snavej]

Some stuff that may have been overlooked:

In Escalation no. 2, the Decepticons transfer memories and entire personalities from humans to facsimiles. That's advanced technology. The facsimiles thought that they were actually human for a while.

In Escalation no. 6, on the point of death, Optimus transfers all his memories and personality to his trailer section and back again over a distance of a few miles while at the same time meeting Nova Prime in the afterlife. He had, apparently, never attempted such a difficult transfer before, though he had done it in safer surroundings.

In IDW's Ongoing no. 3, Jetfire complains that our wifi internet is so slow that it's giving him a headache. He is monitoring it directly with his brain. He is obviously used to dealing with much greater network traffic. Conceivably, this could involve thought transfers.

In Maximum Dinobot no. 5, Shockwave says that Scorponok's Headmaster has given him an increased reaction time of about 60%, which is very important in battle. I think that this could be one of the key advantages of networking.

This illustrates the importance of speedy communication from one part of a dynamic system to another:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14329748

In LSotW (text story), it also says that direct information downloads to the brain enable Transformers to understand things much quicker than if they read/watch/listen in the old-fashioned way. This would be invaluable when fighting a war. Even complicated orders could be received and fully understood in the blink of an eye, rather than bringing people to a briefing room or asking them to digest a pile of printed documents.

Imposing a network is an 'atrocity'? Well, I think that the Transformers are used to atrocities by now. There's death, destruction and suffering every day. One more atrocity won't make a difference. Why are people happy to see pictures of death, destruction and suffering yet can't abide a few thoughts being shared? Something's wrong with the mentality there.

I don't think that stories give a full picture of a situation. They will always be selective about what is shown (hence the possibility of retcons). Sometimes, they are also inaccurate. Therefore, it is acceptable to assume that there is networking going on most days somewhere in Transformer society but it doesn't get mentioned in comics, cartoons, etc. Don't rely on comics to tell you everything about a situation. Consider other interpretations.

A comic may show a speech bubble but it may neglect to show coded messages being transmitted inside that speech, perhaps in fractal patterns that allow huge amounts of data to be put inside a few seconds of vocals. Presumably, these messages would be too big to print in a comic. This encoding is possible today on our internet (infamously done by terrorists), so Transformers would surely be able to do it all the time.

Who really thinks that Transformers vocalise all the time? Who really thinks that they speak English all the time for our convenience? When they have so many possible methods of communication, it makes sense to use them. It makes it more difficult for the enemy to monitor what they're saying. For example, in All Hail Megatron, Cliffjumper receives a simple message by line-of-sight laser.

A fictional example of a network where individuals can come and go as they please is The Great Link in changeling society in Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. The changelings often send out individuals, for various reasons, and those individuals have the freedom to never return to The Great Link. If this sort of thing is possible, then individuality and networking can co-exist.

Tramp in a bottle at:

http://www.scentstore.co.uk/showdetails.asp?id=1199

Infestation: even the zombies are getting in on the action with their group mind.

Heart of Darkness nos. 1 & 2: Galvatron, Cyclonus and Scourge scan the complex systems of an entire cybernetic planet, Gorlam Prime. Galvatron uses the Heart of Darkness to mind-probe Hardhead.

Out of interest, real-world scientists keep making forward steps in the field:

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/west-centra ... akthrough/

Stephen Hawking wants to use a mind-reading device:

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/ib ... 10217.html

TF: MTMTE no. 3 (Mar. 2012): it appears that Chromedome is a deep mind-reader.