War for Cybertron Toy Discussion

Figures, collectables, customs and collecting.
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Post by Cliffjumper » Fri Jun 04, 2010 7:24 am

glazios wrote:Probably keeping their opinions to themselves, as they'd only be re-covering old ground and the causing same dead-end arguments. 'Course, they could also be tired of being told to shut up, and being called idiots for having an opinion in the first place, even if is the same old tired hat all over again.

The Alt. modes look funky because they're supposed to be pre-Earth modes - Cybertronian alt. modes. Why would a vehicle mode from Cybertron, where there are no human beings, have any need for a driver's seat? Or even a cab, for that matter?

The Earth alt. modes we're all so used to seeing, and the Geewun'ers who are so keen on seeing repeated over and over again, were actually meant to be disguises as I recall - those alt. modes needed to have the appropriate interior stuff in order for the vehicle modes to blend in. The Cybertronian equivilant wouldn't need any of because they don't need a pilot/driver/etc., and the war hasn't left Cybertron yet - the 'Bots and 'Cons haven't met humans yet during WFC.

Christ, a Cybertronian alt. mode wouldn't even need a windscreen. That much is common sense, when you stop and think about it. Most people shouldn't need to.
What the Hell are you actually on about?
Much as we do like someone to point the finger at, we can't blame people for doing their best and failing to come up with something that's going to fly off the shelves faster than Hasbro can make 'em...
Yep, just settle, it's the Transformers way.
Warcry wrote:Every toy Hasbro makes can't be Leader Brawl. There are a lot of people out there who actually like simpler Transformers like this, and I don't see why they shouldn't have a chance to buy toys that appeal to them. I think a lot of the toys you like are overpriced, over-engineered and ugly.
I'm not talking about complexity, more just the general... look of the things. I can feel how cheap and nasty that plastic is just by looking at the pictures. It's got that weird not-quite-solid look to it a lot of the ROTF compounds had, especially the grey on Soundwave.

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Post by Soundwave » Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:21 am

Yeah I am enjoying the look and designs of these unsure of the plastics, I'll have to take a look when they are on shelf and decide then.
Cliffjumper wrote:What the Hell are you actually on about?



Yep, just settle, it's the Transformers way.


Problem with this is that we the transformers fans no longer have that sort of power since the influx of people that now think Transformers are cool again due to the films. Whether we buy these figures or not won't change anything really for hasbros pocket book because every little timmy and billy down the street will beg mom and dad to get them and mom and dad will be thrilled to do so.

At the end of the day Hasbro will get their money and the cycle continues.
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Post by Cliffjumper » Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:24 am

Oh yeh, nothing's ever going to change, for sure. It's the way so many people seem so happy to settle that gets me.

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Post by Sades » Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:35 am

But at the end of the day, really, what else is there to do? :|

I don't much enjoy being a miserable bastard ( ;) ), so I'll find something I like about whatever we're given. IMO It's better than not getting anything at all.
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Post by Halfshell » Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:59 am

Sades wrote:But at the end of the day, really, what else is there to do? :|
Stop buying the toys and spend the money on something far less frustrating?

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Post by Sades » Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:07 am

It's not frustrating to me, personally- and to an extent, I already have. I avoid toys I don't like the look of and pick up ones I like the look of, or like the look of and have heard good things about.

I think that's just common sense. If you're gonna spend your money on crap, buy crap you'll actually like. :o If people are just buying shit they don't like for the hell of it then they have something wrong with them.
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Post by Rattrap's tail » Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:49 pm

I like Megs, but Soundwave just turns me off...

I would like to seem them more painted, but I guess Ive got to solve that problem on my own...

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Post by Brimstone » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:31 pm

Cliffjumper wrote:Imagine what those would look like with diecast, craftsmanship and a design team who gave a shit.
I'd just settle for some decent paint apps. :)
Cliffjumper wrote:It's got that weird not-quite-solid look to it a lot of the ROTF compounds had, especially the grey on Soundwave.
Exactly! Megs, too. It looks almost translucent or something. Really, it looks like the quality of a toy you'd get from a McDonalds happy meal.

I'm not saying anything about the design of the thing (the pics aren't really good enough for that yet). The videos I've seen of the games seem pretty cool...but these toys don't quite live up to those rough and battered looking designs from the game.
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Post by Jaynz » Fri Jun 04, 2010 5:37 pm

Cliffjumper wrote:Oh yeh, nothing's ever going to change, for sure. It's the way so many people seem so happy to settle that gets me.
Settling compared to what, though? Have you seen other toylines? A deluxe-class Transformer toy is at the same price-point as a lot of the DC toys, Toy Story bits, etc, but is a lot more complicated in engineering and design, even for things like WFC Soundwave. Sure, he doesn't compare to, say, Henkei Prowl perhaps, but compared to the rest of the toy aisle?

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Post by Cliffjumper » Fri Jun 04, 2010 5:59 pm

Relatively good doesn't equal good, though. It doesn't have to be compared to anything. Though if you must have a comparison, how about the Transformers made a couple of years ago? Putting aside any thoughts on how they actually look, many ROTF figures are notably poorer manufactured than those from the first film; ditto for Universe and Classics.

Bringing how they look back in, Universe was notably flakier than Classics, and ROTF was probably, on the balance, a step back from the first film line (ROTF figures don't seem to have much middle ground, toys either being really great or really poor).

It's the corner-cutting that gets me more than anything else - so many Transformers from the past five, six years could have been massively improved by better plastic compounds, a mere handful of extra dabs of paint and a tiny little bit of thought. How many minor improvements have been made to figures recently (whether as running changes, or when a mould's been repainted) simply because the first round were put out in too much of a hurry?

The other problem is that a lot of fandom seems quite happy with substandard manufacture and/or design, usually using all kinds of excuses. Buying toys from a multi-billion global corporation, and making excuses on their behalf.

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Post by Sades » Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:47 pm

I agree with you on the quality of the figs- though it isn't the largest part, shitty quality is a part of the reason I avoid buying any of the newer stuff (unless, as in the case of the animated Dinobots it's a fig I wanted to pick up just because. Even then, when I opened Grim up the quality was disappointing).

Out of the newer releases I have managed to find toys that I enjoy the look of and aren't as shit as the rest, but even then looking at the majority of stuff that's being released now kind of makes me nostalgic for BW/RiD. Quality was a bit more consistent then, imo (wasn't perfect, but at least there was less chance of every other fig being total shit).
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Post by Rattrap's tail » Sat Jun 05, 2010 11:26 am

Aah, What do I love BW and RiD. So many gimmicks, so many great paint apps, chromed paint on every class, where do you see that today???

Up to today, these lines remain my personal faves, as they show thatoncepuon a time, hasbro was putting out some great toys...

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Post by Cliffjumper » Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:02 pm

Sades wrote:I agree with you on the quality of the figs- though it isn't the largest part, shitty quality is a part of the reason I avoid buying any of the newer stuff (unless, as in the case of the animated Dinobots it's a fig I wanted to pick up just because. Even then, when I opened Grim up the quality was disappointing).

Out of the newer releases I have managed to find toys that I enjoy the look of and aren't as shit as the rest, but even then looking at the majority of stuff that's being released now kind of makes me nostalgic for BW/RiD. Quality was a bit more consistent then, imo (wasn't perfect, but at least there was less chance of every other fig being total shit).
I think the problem for me is the missed potential from some decent designs on paper. These don't look half as good as the game models, but chances are they're going to be the only War for Cybertron Megatron & Soundwave we get, assuming Takara don't improve their versions.

It's what got me with Universe Prowl/Bluestreak/Smokescreen too - chances are that's it, those are their Universe figures, they're not going to go back and redo them with necks at any point. We're not going to get an ROTF Rampage that actually works, and it looks like we're not going to get a ROTF Jolt with decent paint apps and no random luminous blue plastic.

I suppose the thing to think is that once upon a time people were thinking that the semaphore-friendly guy with his legs stuck together was the only Sunstreaker they were going to get, and that we're arguably lucky that half-decent figures continue to turn up at all. But I don't see that as a get out of jail free card for Hasbro (and neither do the people going back and fore with me here, as far as I can tell, but see if you can throw a rock in the reviews section without finding someone with preposterously low standards).

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Post by Clay » Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:46 pm

Cliffjumper wrote:What the Hell are you actually on about?
He's providing a very detailed, qualified version of "they don't turn into cars like in 1987 so they suck."

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Post by Jaynz » Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:10 pm

Well, it's unfortunate, but keep in mind that 'cutting-corners', in so much as they actually are, is all that's keeping these toys affordable in a recession. They're already hitting price-points where most American families are beginning to skip them over (I can buy you that Megatron, or a second-tier PS3 game...) If they weren't cutting costs, you would have some very pretty, very expensive, self-warmers.

And, saying this, I'm aware that Europe is royally screwed in prices for these figures (something like 20 percent more bare minimum, was it?), but that's ALSO why the European toy market isn't all that greater. :S

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Post by Cliffjumper » Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:20 pm

This is the thing - I understand the factors behind it (and recession or not, Hasbro are obviously up for anything that boosts the profit margin assuming it doesn't cause a sizeable drop in sales). I just don't like it, and am not going to make excuses on their behalf.

EDIT: @ Clay - yeh, that was my guess. Not entirely sure how it was particularly related to what I said (which was an offhand reference to the hypocrisy of some fans), but there we go.

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Post by Jaynz » Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:48 pm

Cliffjumper wrote:This is the thing - I understand the factors behind it (and recession or not, Hasbro are obviously up for anything that boosts the profit margin assuming it doesn't cause a sizeable drop in sales). I just don't like it, and am not going to make excuses on their behalf.
Well, I think too that you're forgetting a lot. Comparing what's arguably the worst of WFC to the best toys in the lines from the past few years is a bit unfair. You're forgetting most the Energon Autobots, nearly everything larger than a Deluxe in Armada, quite a bit of Cybertron, most non-movie characters from both movies, etc.

Is there a decline on average? A little bit, I think, but I think you're overstating it, really. It's not like we're seeing the drop in quality from Diaclone to Headmasters or, worse, from Headmasters to Masterforce-era toys.

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Post by Jaynz » Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:06 pm

Rattrap's tail wrote:Aah, What do I love BW and RiD. So many gimmicks, so many great paint apps, chromed paint on every class, where do you see that today???
I think that if we tried to do an RID-like line now, most people would complain. Why? Most of the RID was simply redecos of older toys with only a handful of new-design toys.

So imagine a line of around 60 toys now where here's all your new figures:
Optimus Prime
Ultra Magnus
Three Deluxe Autobots
Four Spychanger Autobots
Megatron
Railracer
Landfill

A little unfair? How about throwing in a few toys from last year's failed toyline (including several which weren't even fit for release THEN?)
Optimus Primal
Jhiaxus
Storm Jet
Bruticus
Obsidian
Autobot Three Pack
Megabolt
Megatron Megabolt

Redecos from the line before that?
Sky Byte
Predacon Three Pack
Cryotek

Redecos from nearly ten years before?
Scourge
Scourge (Destructicon)
Dreadwing / Smokejumper
Bludgeon
Axer vs. Sideways
10 Autobot Spychangers
Four Flipchangers
Megastorm (Korea)
Autorollers (Korea)

Let's go even further back for a combiner team and a city-former that doesn't have modern standards of design and articulation?
Ruination
Fortress Maximus

Now, that we're all done, let's redeco just about every toy in the line at least once (or several times, in the case of the Spychangers). This is what Robots in Disguise really was. The reason the line did so well was because it's was done on the cheap. I can't even imagine the hue and cry if the main Transformers line now was done like this... I think the internet would explode or something.

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Post by Cliffjumper » Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:51 pm

TFVanguard wrote:Well, I think too that you're forgetting a lot. Comparing what's arguably the worst of WFC to the best toys in the lines from the past few years is a bit unfair. You're forgetting most the Energon Autobots, nearly everything larger than a Deluxe in Armada, quite a bit of Cybertron, most non-movie characters from both movies, etc.
My main problem isn't with the figure itself (which'd be subjective anyway), it's with the general cheap look and finish (going by those pictures, and by the general quality standards of most of the 2009 releases).

Take Movie Dreadwing, for example. Diabolical figure, and I love the 2007 game and love the drones (no idea why, just do). It's a pretty poor basic concept made into an action figure that loses any positives along the way. But it's well-presented, with a well thought-out paint mask, good quality plastic and so on - that's what seems to be missing from a lot of more recent figures, that final little bit of effort to make them look... finished.

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Post by Warcry » Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:53 pm

Cliffjumper wrote:My main problem isn't with the figure itself (which'd be subjective anyway), it's with the general cheap look and finish (going by those pictures, and by the general quality standards of most of the 2009 releases).
That's true enough as far as it goes, but you can't judge something entirely based on the pictures. I don't mean that in a "don't judge a book by it's cover" sense either, I mean it in a "Hasbro's stock photographers are horrible" sense. Most of the stock photos we see look horrible, and the ones that don't are usually Photoshopped beyond recognition (the same goes for pics that fans have taken). That's a marketing problem though, and not something inherent in the toys themselves.

It could turn out that the toys actually do look like that, but until we've seen them in person it's hard to say.
Cliffjumper wrote:Take Movie Dreadwing, for example. Diabolical figure, and I love the 2007 game and love the drones (no idea why, just do). It's a pretty poor basic concept made into an action figure that loses any positives along the way. But it's well-presented, with a well thought-out paint mask, good quality plastic and so on - that's what seems to be missing from a lot of more recent figures, that final little bit of effort to make them look... finished.
I've been hearing this complaint in one way or another ever since I started participating in the online fandom eight years ago, though. I'm really not sure I see any difference in plastic or paint quality between now and Armada, though. What I do see are toys that are somewhat more complicated, which makes me wonder if they're reaching the limits of what they can do with the materials they've got at any given price point. More moving parts means more places where the plastic is going to wear.

I don't think it's a recent thing for toys to be released without all the paint apps they should have, either. That's why we got the Premium toys in the first Movie line, after all. And the Japanese releases have had more extensive decos since Armada at least, so this isn't a new thing either.

One place where you hit the nail square on the head was when you pointed out that ROTF has more bad designs than the original Movie line, and that Universe had more bad designs than Classics. But I don't think it's hard to figure out why, either.

Classics had eleven new molds -- Astrotrain, Rodimus, Bumblebee, Starscream, Grimlock, Mirage, Jetfire and two each of Prime and Megatron. The rest of the line was made up of redecos and Minicons that IIRC were designed for Cybertron and pushed back. Universe had 28 new molds. And considering how the back end of ROTF is being filled out with new molds instead of Cybertron redecos, I think you'd come up with similar numbers if you went through and counted those. Nowadays they're trying to throw so much new product out on the shelves that I think we're seeing a lot of toys make it to production when four years ago their designs wouldn't have got past the concept stage.

The thing is though, I don't think there are any fewer good toys being made now than there were back then. It's just that there are more bad ones out there along with them.

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