Should Furman Just Retire At This Point?

[inflatable dalek]

Whist he's done some good stuff in the modern TF era (most recently some surprisingly decent work on the Titan comic), I think it's fair to say his absolute brainstorming days are behind him. IDW only seem to be keeping on board as a token effort, the comics sell about the same without him regardless of quality so he doesn't seem to be a big draw and he presumably still has the day job as an editor he was working in for the two decades no one would hire him to write comics and thus doesn't need the not exactly huge amount of money IDW throw at him anyway.

So is it time for him to stand down and make way for fresh blood? Or does the fact most of the new writer's we've had have been terrible mean he should carry on as at least he usually manages average to good work?

[Cliffjumper]

I can't remember when he last did average to good work. Escalation? The odd half-decent Spotlight that he usually then ****s over? Devastation was terrible, Maximum Dinobots was worse, and I've yet to give a shit enough to read the free scans of Revelation sitting on my computer, because God knows what a balls up he made there. It doesn't matter if the thing was compacted because of AHM, he had years to get the story to go somewhere, and he just couldn't.

His writing has become deeply lazy - most characterisations are recycled from his Marvel run and Flanderised - just the same old tired archetypes, something which is rubbing off on other writers too. He's incapable of writing any script that isn't a) full of itself and b) part of some bigger picture that never goes anywhere due to his own inability to write disciplined, incisive narratives anymore. Sod his G1 stuff being curtailed by McCarthy - if Furman was still on the book, he'd still be introducing peripheral elements of the storyline now with no sign of it going anywhere. Indeed, he should be eternally grateful to Shaun for giving him a get-out that's saved a bit of his reputation. The obsession with Men in Black organisations is getting old too - people have the gall to lambast the films for featuring all of, what, four human characters who have more than a handful of lines, and yet they swallow this warm bullshit?

The Marvel stuff stands up as good, occasionally great stuff that benefitted from being written on the hop, meaning stories had to get where they were going pronto before something else turned up. Occasionally there was a grand design, but the stories were fun in their own right. The IDW stuff has all been about hints and, har de har har, revelations for this monstrosity of a universe, but there's no ****ing point mapping out these big conspiracies and great historical backstories if the comics themselves are as dull as ditchwater. Anyone can write a bad Transformers comic, but it takes a truly faded talent to be able to take a series about things which turn into robots which fight other things which turn into robots and make it boring.

Sure, he hasn't been helped by the fact IDW do not have a single ****ing clue what they're doing (their sole improvement on DW appears to be that they're paying people... but then they're paying people like Alex Milne, Sean McCarthy and that Chris idiot who wrote those dire live action comics I've just slogged through, so whether that is actually a good thing is debatable - if they weren't paying these losers, they might get jobs in a different industry), but he's also completely blown the opportunity himself.

The new writers have either been unsuitable for a long-term, central role (Nick Roche is a fabulous artist and a decent writer who's benefitted from being sparingly used), but that's no reason to keep paying a known mediocrity - keep trying people and someone will pop up. Or they won't, which you can't do anything about. They had to right idea shunting Furman to one side and trying to get a writer who can do beginning/middle/end. It was a shame the guy they found was a moron, but readers' intelligence would have been insulted one way or another. The only real mistake was not kicking Furman back to writing episodes of X-Men Evolution, presumably fearing a backlash from the gullible ones who were perfectly happy to keep paying for build up that showed no signs of going anywhere while a middle-aged has-been saw to it they got charged $2.50 or whatever for 22 pages of fanwank.

He's Cyberchris Astroclaremont.

[inflatable dalek]

Even the worst of Furman's hasn't had me gorging my eyes out like some of AHM/MO/That Avengers thing/Hearts of Steel ect ect has, though that's relative of course.

I thought the Roche AHM story showed some excellent credentials for becoming the main writer, it told a good story but at the same time dealt with previous continuity in a sensible way that (bar one niggle) improved on things without feeling the need to piss all over them or directly ignore them. I suppose the Wreckers mini will give the proof in the pudding over if he can handle multi issue stories but right now his single issue work impresses me much more than Costa's efforts.

[Cliffjumper]

Sod the continuity - why should future writers be saddled with Furman's wet-brained ideas? Where AHM went wrong (well, one of the reasons, anyway) was not totally cutting off the Deadfurmanverse and pissing over its' remains. None of the other stuff has been any good, mainly because IDW have trouble attracting writers, what with them not so much being a comic company as some sort of licence renting operation - presumably they don't pay for people who have their own ideas, which probably limits the field to crap. O'course, it probably makes it easier for IDW to stick with tired old Furman when other writers turn in a shit series and are branded the anti-christ, whereas when Furman turns in a bad series fandom collectively goes "hmm, nice mention of some ordinary word Capitalised, I'll give it another six or seven years".

Part of the problem is Transformers fans don't want anything new, they want the old stuff, but just a bit more organised and a bit more grown up (but only in terms of violence against humans; God forbid anyone swear or show some libido). So you've got to have the same old 'classic' Grimlock/Shockwave, as long as we have a 'proper' explanation for why they're a big T-Rex/SPACE GUN.

This is how Furman's written since, well, he came back basically (his Dreamwave material was largely the same - some good ideas, some terrible stories - how many people actually still talk about The War Within now?) - everything seems designed as a response or pre-response to questions about Transformers, with the stories distorted to accomodate his take on concepts. The Spotlights tend to turn into Simon Says as Furman ignores interesting narrative in order to expound on robot gender, combiners, the Primes, Galvatron and Wheelie. All so Transformers "can never be the same again" - what exactly was quite so wrong with it before this latest car crash?

I mean, how many people here even give a shit about the IDW comics anymore? If I'd posted my first response a couple of years ago, I'd have been beaten up by now.

[Rurudyne]

This is how Furman's written since, well, he came back basically (his Dreamwave material was largely the same - some good ideas, some terrible stories - how many people actually still talk about The War Within now?) - everything seems designed as a response or pre-response to questions about Transformers, with the stories distorted to accomodate his take on concepts.

So what you're saying, essentially, is that he's been acting the role of a fanfic writer who feels obligated to remain true to some vision of what the franchise has been (including explaining its myriad nuances) rather than acting as someone with a genuine power to shape that franchise?

That Furman is now writing in the idiom of Furman?

(Kinda like what must have happened to Mel Brooks at some point between To Be or Not To Be and Robin Hood: Men in Tights.)

[Cliffjumper]

So what you're saying, essentially, is that he's been acting the role of a fanfic writer who feels obligated to remain true to some vision of what the franchise has been (including explaining its myriad nuances) rather than acting as someone with a genuine power to shape that franchise?

No, I'm saying he's more interested in making points than making comics.

[Rurudyne]

No, I'm saying he's more interested in making points than making comics.

I kinda thought that's what I was saying.

[Starfield]

Even the worst of Furman's hasn't had me gorging my eyes out like some of AHM/MO/That Avengers thing/Hearts of Steel ect ect...

Hearts of Steel gets lumped in with those others? Really? I liked it quite a bit and it doesn't seem to have much in common with those. I know it is all subjective, but I'm just surprised.

[Halfshell]

Can we be certain that Furman hasn't already retired?

[inflatable dalek]

Sod the continuity - why should future writers be saddled with Furman's wet-brained ideas?

The Roche story has nothing to do with the Furman stuff bar some background motivation for Prowl. The continuity things it handles well whilst at the same time shifting them into something better are from previous issues of All Hail Megatron. As much as I don't like AHM it really shouldn't be contradicting itself on a month by month basis but that's basically what the other Coda writers (including McCarthy) have been doing as they've tried to salvage the thing.

some good ideas, some terrible stories - how many people actually still talk about The War Within now?)

The irony there is its up with the Primus/Unicron backstory as his most influential stuff, giving Hasbro the idea of another way of selling different toys of the same characters as "Cybertronian" modes and of course the Fallen.

[Knightdramon]

Having read escalation to revelations and the spotlights in-between a couple of days ago, I don't think he should retire, he should just get a chance to write a comic book [spotlight or not] here and there, not a main series.

I mean, Nefarious [movie-verse] is basically the meat of the infiltration and escalation stories, ie a human organization wanting to use\misuse transformers for their own good. That's like reading the same thing again, only this time the transformers are different.

I rather enjoyed AHM, sure the pacing was a bit awkward at times but it was better than Maximum Dinobots. I think fans went a bit over the top on Shane for a myriad of things, especially the fact that the Autobots were nowhere to be seen for oh so many issues and so on, even though it "dragged" for a year. People still haven't got an answer on to what that damn island on Lost is, for like, how many years now?

Many designs [although that's not related to Furman] were changed because the toys available at the time had to match the comics-MP Starscream was on sale at the time, the universe deluxes were still available and so on.

Back to Furman, though, how many times did the words\phrases "exponentially", "time ticks inexorably away", "things are about to get collateral" and "nothing will ever be the same again, there will be casualties blah blah" had been used before other people, besides me, were BORED to death?

Bring on new writers, as I said before, and let them handle the main stories. The War Within is terribly, terribly overrated, especially after the first volume, which went downhill at around issue 3-4.

[zigzagger]

So is it time for him to stand down and make way for fresh blood? Or does the fact most of the new writer's we've had have been terrible mean he should carry on as at least he usually manages average to good work?

Yes, if he hasn’t already. It was fun for awhile and he had a few nifty ideas, but I’m done grieving over the loss and have since moved on.

When IDW et al. opted to “soft-reboot” the continuity that Furman established only to (sort of) recognize it halfway through AHM in order to pacify all the naysayers (like me, admittedly), in my opinion, resulted in more holes in the already patchy continuity that Furman left behind.

In retrospect, it's kind of odd that I'm saying that now. I'll admit it. Guess the buzz finally wore off.

Hand the reins over to someone who has minimal knowledge of the material prior, and just start from scratch. Or least try to veer away from it a little.

[Rurudyne]

Hand the reins over to someone who has minimal knowledge of the material prior, and just start from scratch.

Well, that leaves out everyone here....

[Halfshell]

I mean, how many people here even give a shit about the IDW comics anymore? If I'd posted my first response a couple of years ago, I'd have been beaten up by now.

I do think you're being overly harsh, but I really don't care enough about the comics to argue any of the points.

As I said over at Transfans recently, I buy very few comics these days, and I try to make sure that when I do they're of a certain quality. The only current titles I buy are Buffy, Fables and Planetary. Of which only the first is in single issues. If I add a new title to the roster, it's usually one that's already completed and that I know is of a specific calibre.

If IDW's Transformers comics (as a whole, including Furman's output) didn't have Transformers in, they wouldn't come anywhere near making the cut. Coupled with the creative direction veering into sheer ineptitude and the absolute contempt that the editorial staff seem to hold the readership in, I'm dropping the entire lot guilt-free and deciding to not even give a toss about defending any of it.

If I ever pick up The Wreckers, it'll be as a TPB. If. Until then, whenever anybody slags off the Furman stuff that I did enjoy, I'll just go off and read Nextwave or Preacher.

Hand the reins over to someone who has minimal knowledge of the material prior, and just start from scratch. Or least try to veer away from it a little.

Reminds me - I still need to watch GI Joe Resolute at some point.

[Cliffjumper]

Hearts of Steel gets lumped in with those others? Really? I liked it quite a bit and it doesn't seem to have much in common with those. I know it is all subjective, but I'm just surprised.

Hearts of Steel was, IMO, awful. Simple concept, good character models, dire story - bit too obvious Dixon would rather not be writing TFs, IMO. Part of the problem is that established writers wouldn't touch IDW or a comic based on the noble principle of selling action figures to children.

One I wouldn't mind seeing again would be John Ney Rieber - I hated his Captain Rightwing series, and the Joe crossover did get badly incomprehensible in the last issue, but the basic alien-ness of the Transformers was nicely done.

Can we be certain that Furman hasn't already retired?

Good point - I direct you to previous ponderings about the Furmanbot.

The irony there is its up with the Primus/Unicron backstory as his most influential stuff, giving Hasbro the idea of another way of selling different toys of the same characters as "Cybertronian" modes and of course the Fallen.

I'd argue it's influential in a bad way, as it seemed to be the first series to really dwell in greater purposes and that kind of crap - it was actually quite refreshing at the time, but now it seems TF comics have to have dark secrets and revelations about the history of the damn species - it's like War Within was Watchmen for Transformers, and now we've got the Transformers version of the Comics Dark Age... Of course, the comparison doesn't ring entirely true as Watchmen was drawn by someone who can draw fight scenes and movement, and had an ending and everything, but there we go...

I mean, Nefarious [movie-verse] is basically the meat of the infiltration and escalation stories, ie a human organization wanting to use\misuse transformers for their own good. That's like reading the same thing again, only this time the transformers are different.

The sad thing is the Movie stuff is an ideal testing ground for new approaches and new writers, and what do they do? The same old tosh.

When IDW et al. opted to “soft-reboot” the continuity that Furman established only to (sort of) recognize it halfway through AHM in order to pacify all the naysayers (like me, admittedly), in my opinion, resulted in more holes in the already patchy continuity that Furman left behind.

That really was a lily-livered decision from IDW, wasn't it? I don't see what they won by doing it at that point - at least if they'd stuck to their guns they'd have cauterised the wound and have the choice of ignoring either the Deadfurmanverse or AHM. Now they seem to be sort-of following both or neither. I mean, jesus, an idiot like Stan Lee was able to keep the Marvel Universe (with myriad titles) running fairly coherently for years...

read Nextwave

"KICK!"

[inflatable dalek]

Hearts of Steel was, IMO, awful. Simple concept, good character models, dire story - bit too obvious Dixon would rather not be writing TFs, IMO. Part of the problem is that established writers wouldn't touch IDW or a comic based on the noble principle of selling action figures to children.

His GI Joe stuff is apparently rather good, which makes you wonder what went wrong there really. The general flimsiness of the concept probably didn't help.

One odd thing is that IDW's Who, Trek and Joe titles all seem to be ticking the right boxes with their fan bases and making good comics. I don't think I've seen a bad word about any of them.

[Halfshell]

His GI Joe stuff is apparently rather good, which makes you wonder what went wrong there really.

GI Joe is about people. Transformers is, no matter how many identification characters you line it with, about giant shapeshifting alien robots. Ignoring the difficulty in setting up and justifying the premise, it's not as straightforward as just transposing character motivations across... if you do, you generally either end up with crap where all the robots are driven by the desire for an emotional connection (like, say, fembots... or the awful Marissa/Jazz stuff from Dreamwave) or sloppy archetypes like in DWG1, where Prime and Megatron were copy/pasted from Xavier and Magneto, Grimlock was Wolverine and Shockwave was Mr Sinister.

Being able to write a military comic revolving around human characters doesn't mean you won't flop when you try and write about characters who are the military hardware. Alan Dean Foster's Alien/s/3 novelisations are actually readable, as an example.

[Cliffjumper]

I agree that Transformers is a very tricky title to write - I can't think of too many writers I like that would be likely to do a good job on the book. TBH, the ideal writer for the book is probably Furman, but with a strong (possibly draconian) set of restrictions, along the lines of "write good involving stories, and the rest will follow". Too much of the IDW stuff has felt like it's trying to hit all the bubbles on a brainstorming diagram, and the handling of characters has been Mad Brick-esque - he picks someone up for an issue or so, and then they're largely neglected. The cast of main characters became far too big for the series to support far too quickly - either cut down the cast to the minimal amount and go TV Beast Wars (the Movie books [as a general note on IDW, not that Furman was entirely innocent] were a perfect opportunity to do this, but instead we got "ZOMG! CROSSHAIRS STOCKADE DREADWING CLOCKER SWINDLE PAYLOAD!!!!"), or have a big cast with only a few real focal points (G2 has barely any developed characters in it beyond Prime, Megatron, Jhiaxus, Grimlock and Starscream).

[Rurudyne]

GI Joe is about people. Transformers is, no matter how many identification characters you line it with, about giant shapeshifting alien robots. Ignoring the difficulty in setting up and justifying the premise, it's not as straightforward as just transposing character motivations across... if you do, you generally either end up with crap where all the robots are driven by the desire for an emotional connection (like, say, fembots... or the awful Marissa/Jazz stuff from Dreamwave) or sloppy archetypes like in DWG1, where Prime and Megatron were copy/pasted from Xavier and Magneto, Grimlock was Wolverine and Shockwave was Mr Sinister.

Being able to write a military comic revolving around human characters doesn't mean you won't flop when you try and write about characters who are the military hardware. Alan Dean Foster's Alien/s/3 novelisations are actually readable, as an example.

I can somewhat attest to this difficulty having tried, like a lot of other frequently capable fans, my hand at fan fiction writing. Even how they curse can be a problem if you are dealing with 'Bots who've not been exposed to human culture (no scatological or sex references, for example).

But with actual stories from people with 'franchise authority' (is that a good term?) to write them in almost all cases what we've been given are robots with nearly no culture of their own (starting with G1) so they just seem to adopt whatever they are dropped into. I think this may actually make it harder to deal with them as people in their own right because if you do that they might end up seeming to be 'just like those people' (except for the robot aspect — which brings up a satire like LKW's "Robots in Disguises").

Maybe this genre is just harder to write for?

[Red Dave Prime]

I can somewhat attest to this difficulty having tried, like a lot of other frequently capable fans, my hand at fan fiction writing. Even how they curse can be a problem if you are dealing with 'Bots who've not been exposed to human culture (no scatological or sex references, for example).

Which is why I am always a little surprised that all (or well, nearly all) the transformers comics I've read focus on the robots and not on a realistic potrayal of a world which has to deal with them. I'm not suggesting that the whole ongoing be devoted to that viewpoint but a six parter of ordinary humans encountering the transformers and NOT opening a dialogue straight away or becoming friends (literary being caught in the crossfire and just surviving) would be an interesting story.

As far as I can see the biggest problem for anyone writing a transformers comic now is whether to change or just follow on with the style that made everything popular. Hardcore fans may have had their fill of cartoon style characters but I have to admit as a non-comic fan I picked up the first dreamwave issues because they looked so close to the cartoon.