I saw the actual question and answered it. Well, dismissed it as irrelevant to the matter under discussion, to be honest. But in short: no, I don't believe any Autobot specifically stated he was dead. But it's certainly how the viewer is supposed to interpret things.Brimstone wrote:Okay, I'm sorry, I think I must have given too much of what I was thinking and wrote too much in my post and so everyone missed my actual question. (I do that sometimes )
Reassessing plot aspects of TF:TM in light of Revenge of the Fallen [SPOILERS for the latter, natch]
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Brimstone wrote:Says who?
The dramatic requirements of the plot if nothing else. "Our hero's must restore Optimus from...a healing nap" isn't in the same league really is it? Plus everyone in the first film regarded Megatron as dead after his spark had been traumatised, suggesting this is very much the norm and both their resurrections are rather uncommon.
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Halfshell wrote:But in short: no, I don't believe any Autobot specifically stated he was dead. But it's certainly how the viewer is supposed to interpret things.
While no one but the Fallen comes out and say it, one should get that Prime bought it from not only from the hole where his spark is suppost to be, but also from the reactions by the NEST team and the Autobots at the air port. The Captian (or was it Major?) had the "oh crap" look as his team was being air lifted to the area.Brimstone wrote:Says who?
Numerous canon sources. The Spark is the life force of a Transformer. Extinguish the Spark and the Transformer is dead. There are basically three ways to permanently kill a Transformer:Brimstone wrote:Says who?
- Sustained and immense amounts of catastrophic injury
Destruction of the brain casing
Direct destruction of the Spark core.
Yeah, I read where you stated this on another thread, too. And I still say, so what. Where has anyone said that in this, the movie, canon?Tramp wrote:Numerous canon sources. The Spark is the life force of a Transformer. Extinguish the Spark and the Transformer is dead. There are basically three ways to permanently kill a Transformer:
And Wolfbolt, I was saying "Says who" to Tramps comment, not Halfshell's.
And Halfshell, so, lemme get this straight, you think you answered my question by dismissing it? lol!
Anyway, this is really stirring up more controversy than I intended. All I was stating was, when I saw the movie, I too immediately thought he was dead. Then I read the comic and read the novel where they state he's in stasis lock and said, "huh...did I miss something in the movie, did they ever actually state he was dead, or did I just infer that? I honestly don't remember." So thought I'd just ask the question (albeit, wordily).
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aka Arek Brimstone
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The thing is that there are essentially two levels of stasis lock. One is a coma-like state, much like suspended animation. The second, is far more severe. It's called permanent stasis lock, also known as death.Brimstone wrote:Yeah, I read where you stated this on another thread, too. And I still say, so what. Where has anyone said that in this, the movie, canon?
And Wolfbolt, I was saying "Says who" to Tramps comment, not Halfshell's.
And Halfshell, so, lemme get this straight, you think you answered my question by dismissing it? lol!
Anyway, this is really stirring up more controversy than I intended. All I was stating was, when I saw the movie, I too immediately thought he was dead. Then I read the comic and read the novel where they state he's in stasis lock and said, "huh...did I miss something in the movie, did they ever actually state he was dead, or did I just infer that? I honestly don't remember." So thought I'd just ask the question (albeit, wordily).
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Indeed. My favorite episode of the original show will always be "Divide & Conquer," in large part because of the moments where the Autobots have to stand up on their own. Spike can be irritating, but it's still one of my favorite moments in TF lore:Cliffjumper wrote:Also agree on there being some sort of indication of a Plan B. Actually, implication of a Plan B that was a heroic failure, with Prime coming in just in time to save the whole thing from the shitter, would have been even better.
Sparkplug: Decepticons. Looks like all of 'em!
Huffer: Oh, we're doomed! Without Optimus Prime, we're no match for the Decepticons!
Spike: We can't go down without trying! (Takes Jazz's gun and runs for the door) Prime would want us to go for it, no matter what the odds! Well, are you with me? Or do I fight this battle alone?
Sparkplug: Spike, you can't...
Huffer: But we can! We get your message, Spike! Autobots, transform!
A simple exchange, but one that still gives me goosebumps. Something like that moment where the Decepticons are closing in on the Autobot base and the Autobots are standing there, ready to fight with that "Oh shit" look on their faces...something like that in the new movie, where they tried and failed until Prime saved the day, would have been nice.
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My two cents: Seeing Movie '86 as a kid made me understand mortality in a way I just hadn't before - especially since the Marvel UK comics ran with the fact that Prime died, got replaced and stayed dead. It cemented in my head the fact that time moves on, everyone eventually dies and new generations arise to take their place.
The knock on effect is that it also made me despise stories that cheat death (ala ROTF) because they're basically delusional wish fulfilment. I find stories about moving on more believable than trying to undo the bad shit that's happened. When Prime buys the farm in ROTF, I don't think for a second that he's not coming back (even though part of me would be glad to see the back of the hyper-violent face-taking incarnation at that point). The demands of being a franchise constantly prevent real change (a fact that also scuppers long running comic book story telling) with resets and reboots constantly returning to the status quo.
All that said, I'm not going to try and argue that Movie '86 is a masterpiece - it's still all about selling toys at the cost of good plotting and narrative structure - but it does develop the mythology in a positive way by changing the mix and ultimately showing death to be final.
The knock on effect is that it also made me despise stories that cheat death (ala ROTF) because they're basically delusional wish fulfilment. I find stories about moving on more believable than trying to undo the bad shit that's happened. When Prime buys the farm in ROTF, I don't think for a second that he's not coming back (even though part of me would be glad to see the back of the hyper-violent face-taking incarnation at that point). The demands of being a franchise constantly prevent real change (a fact that also scuppers long running comic book story telling) with resets and reboots constantly returning to the status quo.
All that said, I'm not going to try and argue that Movie '86 is a masterpiece - it's still all about selling toys at the cost of good plotting and narrative structure - but it does develop the mythology in a positive way by changing the mix and ultimately showing death to be final.
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Which - as you might imagine - I really disliked. It felt like a cop out. I didn't catch any of season 3 or Prime's return until many years later, so as a kid all I had to go on was the UK comics in which Rodimus Prime was the defacto future leader.Except that Prime sill came back in the end.
Thinking about it, Transformers was probably the most death filled comic a kid could read.
Yeah. The problem with the film to the general public (i.e. relatives, friends) is that the plot is too long-winded. First, the Allspark shards, then Jetfire, then the Matrix, then the Solar Harvester... too many MacGuffins. In the first movie, there was the AllSpark, there was Megatron. Simple.halfshell wrote:Would Revenge of the Fallen have been improved by the Matrix subplot being dropped and the spotlight being shone on the leaderless Autobots coming into their own in a bid to stop the Solar Harvester?
And, yeah. It would be much better for Sam, Bumblebee and co to fly (not teleport) to Egypt on Jetfire, while the leaderless Autobots panic and do an 'oh shit we're so dead' kind of moment when the Decepticons arrive. For one, I had expected the Autobots (most or all of them) to watch in dread as Devastator is being formed, and then throw everything they have at the giant.
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