Babylon 5

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Halfshell
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Babylon 5

Post by Halfshell »

Right, so I've done the first two seasons (and anybody attempting to give me spoilers will be killed - I'm not starting season 3 until the weekend).

's alright, innit? Their dramatic end of season cliffhangers aren't quite as dramatic as they seem to think they are, and the standard "one dimensional alien races who are bewildered/in awe of how multifacted and contradictory humans are" is as arrogant and annoying as in every other story it's ever cropped up in, but huge points for dropping the smug charisma-free perfect-perfect everyman with the stupid smile who manages to suck the drama out of every scene at the end of season one and replacing him with an actual character.

- Are those Minbari bone things detachable then or what? I'm thinking of when ambassador bint had that awesome Ivanova chick (who mercifully has stopped reminding us she's Russian every episode) do her hair for her.

- Garibaldi's blatantly the star of the show. Or maybe Londo. I'm not sure yet.

- I like the fact that four people are directly responsible for absolutely everything that happens aboard the station.

- Losing Sinclair also means we lose that godawful "hall alone in the night" voiceover.

- Points for the human cast in the pilot movie being completely different to the people in the series. Fox never would have let them get away with that.

's fun. Though the film crew aboard episode is just another example of why it shouldn't be allowed. New BSG is the only program I've seen which managed to make it entertaining, and that was only by doing it primarily from the "being filmed" perspective.

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Post by inflatable dalek »

It is indeed a great show. Even if Sinclair was slightly more wooden that a great Redwood (I was at a Q&A thing Ivonova and Londo did recently and when asked were there any cast members they didn't get on with they both said Sinclair fast as you like).

Fantastic fact: Had the original first officer stayed on it would have been her who shoot Garibaldi at the end of season one. Her being a traitor is set up by the Assasin usuing her ID card to get into Kosh's quarters.

The amount of foreshadowing that came from all the pre planing is wonderful as well, even if it does go for a burton a bit towards the end with cast members leaving/threatened cancelations forcing the master plot to take some curve balls to stay on track (The resolution of the Babylon 4 mystery is especially bad for this due to Sinclair not being regular cast anymore).

Morden's fantastic as well, as is Vir.
- Are those Minbari bone things detachable then or what? I'm thinking of when ambassador bint had that awesome Ivanova chick (who mercifully has stopped reminding us she's Russian every episode) do her hair for her.
Yeah, exactly how the hair grows under what's effectively the skull is never adressed.

Mid season 3 through to the end of season 4 is the shows peak, and Garabaldi is indeed the star. And they make Walter Keonig good!
:eek:

Oh, and if you like this you really should check out DS9, the similarity of setting (Which JMS is still bitter n twisted about) means that the Trek creators had to actually work hard to keep their show as good as the competition instead of floating on Autopilot like the other post TNG shows.

Oh, and whatever you do, don't watch Crusade. Really.
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Post by Halfshell »

Yeah, everything I read beforehand made a big deal about so much of it being mapped out and everything... but even with that knowledge, I can't shake the feeling that Sinclair was replaced with Sheridan due to being godawful, and the only reason D'Len was allowed hair was due to not being able to cope with the makeup... probably due to my knowledge of why they wrote Zhaan out of Farscape.

DS9 I'm wary of, seeing as I'm violently biased against anything Trek.

Vir! Yes, he's great. I loved his little confrontation with Morden. "What do I want? I want to be there when they hang you."

I do have to keep reminding myself that it's off of early/mid 90s, though. The production/script quality stands up so well against stuff since then, I often forget it's as old as it is.
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Post by inflatable dalek »

Originally posted by Brendocon
Yeah, everything I read beforehand made a big deal about so much of it being mapped out and everything... but even with that knowledge, I can't shake the feeling that Sinclair was replaced with Sheridan due to being godawful,
Officially he was replaced because JMS decied it would be to much of a coincidence for him to have been vital at the battle of the line and for his archeologist girlfriend to have vanished at Zh'HaDum thus tieing him directly into both plot strands neatly. Hmmm.
and the only reason D'Len was allowed hair was due to not being able to cope with the makeup...
Nah, that at least was always planned from the outset- she's building that machine for most of the season and note how you don't see her face when she's comforting Old Sinclain in Babylon Squared (also note how she's got her arm on his shoulder in a way that suggests the original plan was for them to start getting as close as she does afterwards with Sheridan, that won't be there when when that bit is reprised when you see the other side of those events).

The real problems start with the fourth season- The show was nearly cancelled then so events that were supposed to last into the middle of the final year were shuntted forward and the more standalone episodes were dropped to accomidate. This- coupled with the loss of a cast member who was supposed to play a big role in season fives main events- means the first half of that year is bloody awful and doesn't have a clue what its doing.

It's still hugely comendable to try and plan out an entire show from the start though, even in these more arc driven days you don't usually get more than a year ahead. It's so satisfying when a flashforward you had two, three or even four years ago gets paid off.
DS9 I'm wary of, seeing as I'm violently biased against anything Trek.
I'm sure you can see the pilot somewhere with a piratey theme, I'd say you'll like it.
I do have to keep reminding myself that it's off of early/mid 90s, though. The production/script quality stands up so well against stuff since then, I often forget it's as old as it is.
Effects wise it's hugely groundbreaking of course (it'd be another few years before the biggger budgetted Trek shows go CGI), even if the sets/make up look a little cheap at times- they command a five mile space station from a space the size of my flat. Formatt wise it's been a big influence on every SF show since as well. The wholse Ivonova/Talia thing for example seems tame now most shows insist on having a hot female character go gay for a week but it was fairly groundbreaking back then.
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Post by Halfshell »

Originally posted by inflatable dalek
The real problems start with the fourth season- The show was nearly cancelled then so events that were supposed to last into the middle of the final year were shuntted forward and the more standalone episodes were dropped to accomidate. This- coupled with the loss of a cast member who was supposed to play a big role in season fives main events- means the first half of that year is bloody awful and doesn't have a clue what its doing.
Aye... opposite thing with Farscape, where despite constant threats of cancellation, they did the entire of season 4 with the intent of having another year to wrap things up... then had to ram the entire fifth year's worth of plot into two telly movies. Rather that than try and squeeze it into season four then not have anything to do in the next series...
Effects wise it's hugely groundbreaking of course (it'd be another few years before the biggger budgetted Trek shows go CGI), even if the sets/make up look a little cheap at times- they command a five mile space station from a space the size of my flat.
Aye, some of the CGI is laughably dodgy, but it gets points for intent at any rate. The Shadows' ships are just beautiful.
The wholse Ivonova/Talia thing for example seems tame now most shows insist on having a hot female character go gay for a week but it was fairly groundbreaking back then.


Aye, despite nothing actually happening I was there thinking "oh, right... yeah... here we go... actually, hang on... this was before everybody did it... and we've not actually seen anything. I'll let it off."
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Post by inflatable dalek »

Originally posted by Brendocon
Aye, some of the CGI is laughably dodgy, but it gets points for intent at any rate. The Shadows' ships are just beautiful.
The Drazi ships are based on The Liberator as well. The guy who did the effects for the first three seasons is an ex-pat who did the ship designs for B7's last year (JMS- unsuprisingly really- is a fan and apparently tried hard to get either Gareth Thomas or Paul Darrow in a guest spot role).

When it comes to the TV Movies it's best to watch them roughly when they were transmitted- so In The Begining and Thirdspace after season 4 and [River of Souls[/i] and Call To Arms after the season 5 final. Alternately you can go for watching ITB after you've seen the War Without End two parter and Thirdspace after the sixth episode of season 4. though doing the latter will make the fact the space station nearly being destroyed and everyone going crazy* is never mentioned in any of the TV episodes set afterwards a good 95% more obvious.

*Not a spoiler as such as the TV Movie handily opens with a voiceover from Sheridan telling you the entire plot to save you the effort of watching it.
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Post by AndyTurnbull »

I loved B5 still haven't gotten round to picking up the DVD's. I loved the fact that there was a great overarching storyline planned from the beginning and as ID has pointed out aside from the end of Season 4 and Season 5 you didn't spot too many of the fixes they had to do on the fly.

Sinclair's tie to Zh'HaDum wasn't going to be the archeologist girlfriend, she was inserted along with Sheridan. I'm sure I've read somewhere that originally Morden was going to be Sinclair's brother.

I too would recommend DS9. It starts off very much like standard Trek but by Season 3 it's quite different and easily the best Trek series by a country mile. You can't beat having a complete fascist running a Starfleet space station.

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Post by AngelOfDeath124 »

The only good thing about DS9 is that its darker than your typical ST series.

As for Babylon 5, absolutely loved it. Some of the episodes do seem a little... well, boring, but the whole Shadow War, which you are coming up on, is fabulous. You learn a lot more about Delenn, Sheridan, and Sinclair and why he's so important.

Londo, G'Kar and Garibaldi are the three best characters, I believe. G'Kar gets better after he becomes a bit more religious, which is odd, since one would think that would ruin a character.

And Vir's line to Morden is, "I'd like to live just long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price. I want to look up into your lifeless eyes and wave like this. [does his little wave] Can you and your associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?" Absolutely best line, and you will learn the reasoning for that opinion later on. :)

My favorite episode comes in season 5, and is called Day of the Dead. I won't tell you what goes on in it, but I'm sure you can gather some guesses from the title.

Enjoy the rest of the series!
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Post by Prowl1984 »

Originally posted by AngelOfDeath124


My favorite episode comes in season 5, and is called Day of the Dead. I won't tell you what goes on in it, but I'm sure you can gather some guesses from the title.

Enjoy the rest of the series!


your favourite episode's in season 5? well that's just wrong....

B5 does indeed kick ass, it's my favourite sci-fi show, well that and the new BSG but they really struggled in season 3...

anyhoo, the season cliffhangers peak at the end of season 3, best cliffhanger to anything ever...
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Post by inflatable dalek »

Originally posted by AndyTurnbull
Sinclair's tie to Zh'HaDum wasn't going to be the archeologist girlfriend, she was inserted along with Sheridan.


It's a bit of a huge coincidence that they both have partners that have jobs that require them to explore deep space and abandoned worlds though- I'd say that if he'd have stayed Sato (That was her name yes?) would have vanished between seasons just like Anne did.
SPOILER! (select to read)
Of course, the biggest fix needed over Sinclair's loss was the whole Babylon 4 thing. It seems the original plan was for the other side of that to be the last ever episode with a naturally aged Sinclair (like Sheridan is in the last episode we do get) going back to be Valen. The fix isn't a smooth one (the logic behind Sinclair ageing is a tad dodgy, and the extra time spent on it means Zathras doesn't appear in a conference room and when the B4 personal see the space suited figure and shout "It's back!" they've not actually seen it before. Plus this creates a problem with the Great Machine. Presumiably its true purpose was supposed to be one of the mysteries of the shows entire run- but once it's sent B4 back two seasons earlier than planed it just hangs about in a slightly embarasing way. Count all the times they could have gotten out of a situation by calling Drall and having him kick some arse
Oh, and it's awful we got so far before someone mentioned the genius of Andreas Katsulas. His greatest moment for me is his reaction to the Centuari emporors death. "How dare he die before I kill him!".


Of course, one of the erarliest shows to be directly influenced by B5 was Beast Wars (Vok= Vorlons)- Larry DiTillo being script editor on the former for the first two seasons before JMS decided to start writing every episode.

Oh, and Brend, how odd was it to see Holtz as a loveable rouge without the VOICE?
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Post by Halfshell »

Aye, I'd noticed Larry D's name (as you would, really) and am planning a BW rewatch for later in the year solely off the back of it.

I recognised Szarabajka from the moment we first glimpsed him, and was completely in awe of the fact that he's talking normally. He even had The Voice in the X-Files. Had to laugh at Garibaldi not knowing exactly why he was shady... he just made a guy stop arguing at him with The Power of His Mind - you'd think that was a dead giveaway. Though I knew he was evil right from the offset - it's like the Rule of Curry. The moment I see the actor, I know he's playing a villain.

And I can't believe I've only just realised that Delenn is in fact Crazy French Woman off of Lost.

Oh, and if Ivanova's a commander, doesn't that mean she outranks Sheridan?
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Post by inflatable dalek »

Originally posted by Brendocon
Aye, I'd noticed Larry D's name (as you would, really) and am planning a BW rewatch for later in the year solely off the back of it.


It's a shame the couple of episodes he wrote weren't all that good though. Shame he didn't stary on as script editor though as they'll be times when JMS could have done with a second eye looking at the script and going "Maybee they could say something other than hell this time? Haven't we had characters go "Set course for babylon 5!" a few to many times?". He always compared himself to Terry Nation writing the first 14 episodes of B7 but forgot that Nation had Chris Boucher keeping an eye on him...
The moment I see the actor, I know he's playing a villain.
That's typecasting for you. I wonder if he got the voice from Talia, officially the most husky voiced woman ever. Oh, and that's another example of Arc fixing- The pilot has Lyta as the telepath, the studio giver her the heave ho so Talia gets brought in to fufill her role, then she leaves (She was married to jerry Doyle so I'd assume the break up made her leave) so they bring Lyta back to take over the plot function. Though the loss of both the originbal telepath and Doctor actually benefits the show as it amps up the mystery of what's in Kosh's suit.
And I can't believe I've only just realised that Delenn is in fact Crazy French Woman off of Lost.
The Call to Arms TV Movie has Carlos Bernard as a fresh faced "Yes Sir, No Sir" officer in it, which is even wierder.
Oh, and if Ivanova's a commander, doesn't that mean she outranks Sheridan?


Well, now the same rank he was. But as he's now an ambasador he pwns her still.
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Post by Halfshell »

Originally posted by inflatable dalek
(She was married to jerry Doyle so I'd assume the break up made her leave)
Ah, that explains that then. I thought it was odd they'd go to all the effort of lacing the TK stuff then make her Teh Evil and boot her off...
Well, now the same rank he was. But as he's now an ambasador he pwns her still.


Sinclair's the ambassador, you fool!
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Post by inflatable dalek »

Ah, sorry, I thought the original post said Sinclair as asking if a Captain would be outranked by a Commander seemed a strange sort of question. But I'd forgotten that you've never seen very much Star Trek...


The thing I love about Sheridan is that beneath than Clintonesque American Pie exterior there's a bit of a fascist bastard trying to get out. Telling in the episode where he first meets Mordon a lot of the lines he uses to justify himself ("Interpretation of a senior officers orders is treason") are identical to what the nutter after Sinclair in Eyes used.
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Post by AngelOfDeath124 »

Sheridan's a Captain, which outranks Ivanova's rank of Commander. Don't ask me, I never questioned it.


And Prowl, why is it wrong that my favorite episode is in Season 5? It's a damned good episode, and I happen to enjoy the works done by the person who wrote the episode(Neil Gaiman).
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Post by inflatable dalek »

Originally posted by AngelOfDeath124
Sheridan's a Captain, which outranks Ivanova's rank of Commander. Don't ask me, I never questioned it.
It's based on the American navy like Star Trek. Though unlike Trek they also use US army ranks (Major's and so on) and apparently it's awfully consistant in how they relate to one another.

And Prowl, why is it wrong that my favorite episode is in Season 5? It's a damned good episode, and I happen to enjoy the works done by the person who wrote the episode(Neil Gaiman).


The problem is Penn and Teller aren't as funny as they think they are. Still a fairly good episode though.

Season 5 actually gets good for about the third quarter when they get some plots going again. Unfortunately they then spend three or four episodes on lengthy goodbyes that kinda dampen the impact of the last ever episode (shot at the end of season 4 in case they got cancelled, doing something that could play at the end of either season was rather cleaver at least) which is nothing but goodbyes.
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Post by AngelOfDeath124 »

See, thing is, I wasn't really paying attention to Penn and Teller, I was paying more attention to the other half of the SL in the episode, which was infinitely better than Penn and Teller's half.
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Post by inflatable dalek »

That's still only half a great episode though. :p

I'd probably go for either The One Where Kosh Meets Morden or The One Where Sheriden has a nice cup of tea with an old man as my personal favourites.
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Post by Getaway »

My favourite episode has always been Severed Dreams from season 3, to me the earth civil war story line was actually more interesting than the Shadow war. Oh and G'kar and Londo were the best characters.

Of the TV movies its only really worth watching In the Beginning to be honest the others just seem like bad extra long standalone episodes. However there is some new TV movies out soon with Battlestar-class CGI for their battle scenes. I've seen an amazing vid of Centauri warships engaging Warlock-class Earth cruisers.

Just so you understand the ranks and uniform. Blue uniform is navy, brown (like in Gropos) is army, grey is security forces, green is Marines.

Captain (Sheridan)
Commander (Sinclair season1, Ivanova season 2))
Lieutenant Commander (Ivanova - season 1)
Lieutenant (David Corwin, that pilot wot died Keffer?)
Ensign (random pilots)

Garabaldi and his security folks are para-military he is some form of warrant officer ie enlisted man with officer responsibilities.
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Post by inflatable dalek »

My favourite episode has always been Severed Dreams from season 3,
Zach getting to make his choice and thus finnaly explain why he's in the titles was nice as well.
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