calling all x men experts

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cosmotron
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calling all x men experts

Post by cosmotron »

i need u all to help me fill up some holes of the whole phoenix, jean grey,madelyne pryor thing.
at first jean dies in dark pheonix saga.
after that scot marries some lady who resembles jean
later on, magneto becomes headmaster of the x men, while xavier disappears.
scott fails in his attempt to become leader, him and madeline are hving problems.
then comes the phoenix rising story, jean is back, scot leaves her to form x factor.

now i just read the dark phoenix, rising from the ashes, phoenix arising, mutant massacre and xtinction agenda stories.
i'm hving trouble puting it all together
can somebody help fill in the gaps.
what happens to madie, she's supp to be jean's clone. in xtinction agenda, we see opal taking care of scot's child, and we learn madie was a clone.
but is'nt cable scot's son.
so he's with them as new mutant leader and as a baby.
plus xavier is somwhere, where are shadowcat, nighcrawler, collossus.

i know its a lot to ask for
but i would appreciate it if someone can give me a detailed rundown on what happ between dark phoenix saga and xtinction agenda.
an explanation of the whole madelyine clone thing,magneto leader thing, and so on.
thanks a lot



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Post by Denyer »

I just fished this out of Google...

http://www.x-page.net/texts/danglersFAQ/part2.txt

Looks like quite an interesting site...

http://www.x-page.net/

(I just gave up keeping track, myself...)

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Post by OmegaDenmad »

It kinda lost sense, you now... I mean, with the revolving door in the afterworld...
Just think about that as the "Dark Age" of the X-Men... It just doesn't get any clearer than what Stuart's link says...


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Post by Galvatron91 »

welcome to the world of marvel comics where things are well...anything but linear. Just remember, trade paperbacks are our friends...saves a ton of cash!

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Post by Jetfire »

It it is it goes first where in a battle with seninnals Jeans appears to dies is boien again as blah blah and with the phoenix power helps save the universe from Shi ar's mad empiror.
Xmen then fight Magneto who is badly wounded and Alphaflight as well as saves Japan big time. then after Moria Mctaggarts uber powerful son (ANd her x husband) is killed dark phoenix story occurs.After this Cy0lops leaves Xmen ands gets with a girl called lee.He is captured by Magneto and in the ensuring battle withthe xmen starts to reconsider his ways slowly but surly he turns good.By from the ashes tpb. Scott meets Maddline pryor and dumps lee and wants to marry maddie straight away.She apparently is normal and its concidence her resembelence to Jean Grey.
Edventually their happy (Cept shes not too happy that Scott cant keep away fromt he X-men) meanwhile proff X gets a cloned body thats fully functional and can walk thus he resumes some normal activities.BUT he gets badly beaten to almost death and only the Shi ar tech can save him thus with Magneto allowing him self to stand for trial for war crimes (Which he gets off) Proff X has a leep of faith and leaves him in charge while he goes to outer space.Problem once there Shi ar is now run by deathbird and his lover now with the starjammers dosent have the resource to send him back.

Cyclope finally leaves the Xmen after storm beeats him to leadership and Maddie helps to force him to quit.They have a couple of good months but Jean is found in the cooocoon and its revealed the phoenix version was never her.She was last seen in the fight with the sentinals pre phoenix.SO she contacts her friends the original xmen and still thinks Scott is the same person .As soon as scott hears Jean is alive he leaves his wife to meet her.They form Xfactor who pretend to hunt mutants but secrettly rescue them to train them.
Event hough theres complicatiosn But Maddie IS a clone of Jean Grey thus Mr Sinister whos responsible for her creation sends the mauarders to kill her and take her and Scotts baby for his 'purposes' They take the baby but fail to kiil her on several ocasions.The mutant massacar occus also and Nightcrawler, Shadowkat and collossus are almost killed.Thousands of morlocks are.Ordered by Mr Sinister.

Edventually Maddie cant cope with Cyclopes getting it back on with Jean and the loss of her baby (MR sinister programmed heer pretty much just to love Scottt and make babies) and this tears her away untill a demon offers her a lot of power to get them back.

Collossus returns to the xmen in fall of the mutants.But shadow cat and Nightcrawler become excalabur after thinking (Along it the rest of the world) that the xmen and Maddie are dead as the events of fall o the mutants.

Next inferno occurs (I recoment this story.Greta characterisation and a totally mental story line) and Maddie dies after rescuring her baby and trying to sacarfice it (She goes very barmy) and the baby is left back in scotts care with Jean as a surrogote mother.Naturally then try and find baby sitters thus opal takes care of it.
By about inferno Magneto is having second thouhts about being 'good' also.

Thats pretty much the basic info between the gaps sorta thing.
After xtention adgenda Xfactor have a big fight with apolyspise (sp?) who kinda infects scotts baby with his teckno virus thu scott has a moment to decide to send his baby into the future to save his life which he does and he edventually comes back as Cable.


pheeeeewwwwwwwwwwwww.



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Post by Cliffjumper »

Damn, missed an X-topic!

If anyone never has, read LegionQuest/Age of Apocalypse! Some of it has Sunfire in it!

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Post by Silly Cow »

If that all had been thinked about forehand, like Babylon5, it would be a great piece of art. But knowing the painful truth about those "plots", it all seems a bit rubbish.

Example, if the writers would have killed Jean Grey knowing that they will soon introduce Maddie, who would be a clone. On top of that they would've known all the way from the start that Grey isn't really dead and would come back and they all would meet in final showdown called Inferno. Then I could say: "Wow, that's some writing!" But now, all I can say is: "Geez, thanks for ruining the Dark Phoenix Saga for me. Well done, guys."

Damn, you just got me pissed off again. I hate it when this happens.


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Post by Jetfire »

Maddie was never originally precieved as a clone.But Chris Clairmont got screwed due to the dumb marvel policy concerning resurections (It it aint Bucky then do it!)
and ruined a good story for the sack of marketing the original 5 xmen to be together,Its funny bt the last time they were all together the comic was canceled and kept on as reruns only.
After this Xmen just was as good and depended on constanr crossovers to keep it intresting.

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Post by Cliffjumper »

I'm assuming you mean "not as good", and as usual I'm going to have a tizzy. Just because a plot-line crosses over into a lesser book doesn't negate its quality. i've read most of the 'big' X-Men storylines, and most of them are better than Dark Phoenix - X-Cutioner's Song, the Twelve, Onslaught, Age of Apocalypse [wicked!], Eve of Destruction, E is for Extinction... okay, so Claremont's last run was a bit sh!t, but every single comic has a bad run sooner or later...

EDIT: the last time the five original X-Men were together, the series was only cancelled because Marvel wanted to cut down on the amount of X-Men titles... If anyone's never read "Hidden Years", go go go, buy it now!

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Post by Jetfire »

Originally posted by Cliffjumper:


EDIT: the last time the five original X-Men were together, the series was only cancelled because Marvel wanted to cut down on the amount of X-Men titles... If anyone's never read "Hidden Years", go go go, buy it now!

I mean the last one before X-factor.X-mens popularty was made on the wprk of Clairmont, Bryne, Cockrum and a uniqute cast of characters.The original X-men was a failure because most of the characters wernt that good.
But the point I'm trying to make was X-men got ruined by greedy suites with money making ideas ignoring what made the whoile thing good anyway.

IMHO the later crossovers were:


X-Cutioner's Song,Quite goof but no dark pheonix saga.

the Twelve,The ending was poor.

Onslaught,Oh yeah sure .Come up with convoluted reasons to make 30 years of character get thrown in the bin by writers with no clue but a gimmic.

Age of Apocalypse [wicked!],Scott Lodbells stuff was outstanding most of the other comics were quite poor (Factor X, the gambit one,.Overall ggod but not great.

Eve of Destruction, E is for Extinction...
havent read these two.The really piss poor 'death' of cyclops (BLATENTLY gonna be resurected anyway) made me leave the x comic and I collected every single issue of Xfactor, Uncanny Xmen,Classic Xmen, Xmen and Wolverine since Uncanny 100.It was a big shame cos X-men was the only thing as big as tf's in my younger years.

I'l admit most X crossovers were exciting wh I first read them buts its more to do with the gimmick than the reading.
The best storys IMHO:

Inferno:Great, tragic, funny and really sad actually resolved storys.

Xmen 272-277:The Magneto goes bad sub story with Rouge was great.Mags allways makes a great story when writtten properly.

X-men 201:Birth of baby nate +cyclops vs storm for leadership.

X-men phoenix saga-I prefer this first epic to the dark phoenix one later.

In Uncanny 160's the first brood story.Prehaps the darkest X story at that time.

X-men:God loves man kills.

X-men 190/191 Or there abouts Great Kullian garth story with alt reality'dark ages' NYC.Prehaps Spiderman's finst moment too.

Fall of the mutants:All the storys were pretty strong here.

The two life/death storys.

X-factor's-About 64-68. The one where Ship is blow up and Nate is sent to the future it had no overall story but it was the best original 5 story since the Neil Adam years and finally finally gave so great characterisation to Cyclops as for years he was seen as 'the bastered who ran one on his wife and baby for another woman' which every long time X fan saw him as.

If you havent read these Cliffjumper please do their some of the best.




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Post by Cliffjumper »

Onslaught was fantastic! It didn't throw anyone in the bin! It led to Heroes Reborn! Which led to the amazing World War III! Which led to The Return! Which ked to Vol 3 of Iron Man and Avengers! Plus it gave them the opportunity to kill The Swordsman again...

Dark Phoenix fell down for me because I'm not a big Jean Grey fan... At the mo I'm grabbing whatever back-issues I can... Trade Paerbacks are usually too expensive for me, though I'm 50/50 on getting the "Essential" books... it's just that the b&w puts me off a little - I'm gonna see what issues of Classic etc. I can get together first...

If you haven't read any of Grant Morrison's stuff, I highly recommend E is for Extinction... The most recent three issues are a little off-boil, he's building up to something...

Eve of Destruction is great Lobdell though, and the best Cyclops stuff I've read to date.

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Post by Jetfire »

Defently get the early classic Xmen.YOu get the earlys cheeper and you get a back up of some high quality and set a lot of character interaction that occured later but didnt swee at firat (EG first time you see the chemistry between Wolverine and Jean Greay).

I'm with you on the not a big JG fan.Loved her before she died but to many convoluted post death explainations.

Plus most long time reders still hold that she was a total BITCH to madlyne Pryor and really selfish to Summers just because he married years after she 'died' and as I've said when you read them in order you pick up on that Cyclops was a complete b#stered to maddie once JG was resurected no matter how much the 90's writers repeadly said (X 100) they are the hearth and sole of the team!??My ass Image

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Post by Galvatron91 »

Ah...x-topics roaming freely across the board! (you know its too bad I don't have more time, I would love to start an X-Men rpg someday)

Lemme see...why am i responding...oh yes.

Age of Apocolypse: I would have to say the greatest X-Men saga imho. I didn't care for X-Calibre and Factor X wasn't that great either, but then I really am not the bigest Cyclops fan then either. But I really did enjoy this storyline, and it was so much better than a number of the crossovers they had about within a few years of that: Phalanx (ugh) Operation zero tolerance (allright, but didn't we read about this in days of the future past?)

Onslaught: well this one was quite good, and it was the first crossover of its size in a while. It also set up alot of great story lines to follow it in...a definate read!

I gave up after Zero Tolerance, though i am getting back into and working my way back. I concede cliffy, the art in X-Men is starting to grow on me.


...and Jetfire you are correct! The entire INFERNO could have been avoid if that dumba$$ summers would have just paid attention to his wife! moron!

jean was always better with logan anyway...
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Post by cosmotron »

Originally posted by Cliffjumper:
Onslaught was fantastic! It didn't throw anyone in the bin! It led to Heroes Reborn! Which led to the amazing World War III! Which led to The Return! Which ked to Vol 3 of Iron Man and Avengers! Plus it gave them the opportunity to kill The Swordsman again...

Dark Phoenix fell down for me because I'm not a big Jean Grey fan... At the mo I'm grabbing whatever back-issues I can... Trade Paerbacks are usually too expensive for me, though I'm 50/50 on getting the "Essential" books... it's just that the b&w puts me off a little - I'm gonna see what issues of Classic etc. I can get together first...

If you haven't read any of Grant Morrison's stuff, I highly recommend E is for Extinction... The most recent three issues are a little off-boil, he's building up to something...

Eve of Destruction is great Lobdell though, and the best Cyclops stuff I've read to date.

the onslaught and zero tolerannce series were good.
but the whole heroes reborn, return thing, that pocket universe thing was lame.
what got me off x men, was after zero tolerance. havok going to some neantheral land, the whole search for xavier, blah blah,. seemed like marvels idea of a story was to totally cause as ,many problems as possible for a character.
but i read one of the issues lately, teh one where angel and all investigate a mutant brothel. not bad.
no one dying, no clones, no another child of scott summers coming back from the future.

personally i liked the madelyne charactor, and hated the way cyclops acted towards her.
if jean was going to come back, then they should'nt hv married them.
well next u know marvel's going to resurect ELVIS.
oh well, thanks guys for filling up some gaps.
personally i think claremont's early run on x men was the best, it made them what they are.


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Post by Jetfire »

Originally posted by Galvatron91:


Onslaught: well this one was quite good, and it was the first crossover of its size in a while. It also set up alot of great story lines to follow it in...a definate read!


It was good but not great due to a lotta week parts.But I still think Xavier bad was totally out of character.If his body was posessed (some writters tried ot show that) and he was a prisoner more it would have settled better with me.

I gave up after Zero Tolerance, though i am getting back into and working my way back. I concede cliffy, the art in X-Men is starting to grow on me.

ZT was the firsat time I left X-men for any period Image.
I do love X-men 70 when they all retuen to the mansion and its totally empty though.
The Gambit started the mutant massacr was one of the worst peices of hack continunity ever.UXmen 150 was cool thoug if only Magneto was revieled to be behind the trial.


...and Jetfire you are correct! The entire INFERNO could have been avoid if that dumba$$ summers would have just paid attention to his wife! moron!

jean was always better with logan anyway...
I agree.
Shame inferbo was a great story for only its complete insanity and great character depection.It makes you cry to see whats happened with Maddie every time i read it.

I stil dont like how Scott Summers and Jean Grey got off so lightly for ir.The fans character assinated them at the time and rightly too.



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Post by Cliffjumper »

Heroes Reborn rocked! It was such a neat idea! It showed just how powerful Franklin was, and gave some great storylines [Rebel O'Reilly, World War III] and left the legacy of counter-Earth/Doomworld. Plus Hawkeye's new outfit was sweet.

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Post by cosmotron »

Originally posted by Cliffjumper:
Heroes Reborn rocked! It was such a neat idea! It showed just how powerful Franklin was, and gave some great storylines [Rebel O'Reilly, World War III] and left the legacy of counter-Earth/Doomworld. Plus Hawkeye's new outfit was sweet.

i just found it lame, that how they supposedly kill off a dozen heroes, only to know their stuck in some pockeet universe.
and one thing, cyclops barely married, in his late 20's and the dude has 3 full grown children, go figure.
rachel summers, cable, x man.
how do we tie all this in.
cause i rem x man thinking jean was madie in x men-onslaught



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Post by Galvatron91 »

X-Man, i.e. nate grey isn't really this cyclop's kid (he is a bio-engineered guy from AoA's Jean Grey and Cyclops), and rachel (from a future time that may or may not happen...stupid marvel) may not be. the only one that is for sure his is cable, still really messes with you doesn't it?
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Post by Jetfire »

Originally posted by cosmotron:
i just found it lame, that how they supposedly kill off a dozen heroes, only to know their stuck in some pockeet universe.
and one thing, cyclops barely married, in his late 20's and the dude has 3 full grown children, go figure.
rachel summers, cable, x man.
how do we tie all this in.
cause i rem x man thinking jean was madie in x men-onslaught

YEAh like most marvel fans I found hero's reborn was lame.IT WAS HALF DONE BY LIEFIELD for goodness sack.The evilone him self.

Heros return was great though.

As for the kids.Two are from alternate realities/futures. Neither will pass. And X-man was lame.
Rachel Summers was breffly one of the best written characters in the X-men.
Thus Cyclops has one kid.Who went to the future and came back.
X-man actently resurected Maddie when he crashed to earth after AOA (Maddies memories were absorbed by Jean at the end of Inferno) and met her early on.Onslaught was the first time he met the other X-men thus the confusion initially.


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Post by Silly Cow »

Here's how I see it.

Fall of the Mutants: Haven't seen the New Mutants part, but other parts were great. And at this time, X-overs weren't once-a-year -happaenings, so it was fresh.

Inferno: This might very well be the best among X-overs. Only flaw was how they justified Cyclops leaving his wife by making Madelyne such an evil character. I specially enjoied the first contact between the new and the old X-men.

X-Tinction Agenda: Altough most of the drawings were godawful, the story was good. I never liked the Spider-Hodge though.

X-Cutioner's Song: Good: X-Factor, Peter David, some good smackdownds, Finally an ending to the Stryfe plot. (at least for a moment.) Bad: Too much emphasis on the Summers family (altough in this one it's understandable, but it just seems that almost half of the x-overs has something to do with the Summers')

Age of Apocalypse: This one rocked. The general badass attitude of the series made it one of the best. Only thing I didn't like was Cyclps turning a goody in the end.

Onslaught; This one on the other hand sucked. It had great potential, but it started to go major downhill right after the part where Thor got Xavier out off Onslaught. At that moment Onslaught changed from a psychological nightmare to a everyday bad guy. And the end, when the only way to stop Onslaught was that every non-mutant would sacrifice themselves. How good, how noble, how...sickening.
At least the Heroes Reborn were generally good.

The Twelve: Yay! Summers' again. If the Twelve were chosen long ago, why aren't they missing Havoc. I smell a retcon. Lot of heroics, lot of smackdown, but no depth.

And for the pearls, I'm not limitng to x-books only 'cause there are so many good stories.

Kraven's Last Hunt (SM)
Guardian Devil (DD)
Born Again (DD)
Future Imperfect (Hulk)
Infinity Gauntlet
Marvels

and for non-Marvel.

Kingdom Come
Watchmen
Sandman




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