Dark of the Moon Feedback and Reviews: Spoilers Ahoy.

[inflatable dalek]

I look forward to the five issue comic series explaining their amazing secret fate.

Has anyone read the novelization? Considering they've got a much better author doing it who usually makes a good fist of this sort of thing (his books of the B5 TV Movies were great and very stylish) I might give this one a punt.

[Cliffjumper]

The one good thing in the comic adaptation so far, by the way, is that Simmons is more or less unhurt after being thrown from his car, only for Dutch to reverse over his leg.

EDIT: Anyone else find it strangely amusing that Sideswipe starts off facing the wrong way in the Mexican stand up and has to swivel around? "Face the front, Little Ron!".

[inflatable dalek]

Ha, brilliant.

I have a sudden overwhelming urge to edit the Wiki, they're claiming "All hail Megatron!" is an injokey reference to All Hail Megatron, when it's far more obviously an ironic callback to the scene of various Decepticons going "All Hail Megatron!" back in the first film (you know, the bit that almost certainly inspired the naming of All Hail Megatron).

[Cliffjumper]

Can I just say how much I like Prime's insane armoury - knuckle dusters and the biggest ****ing shotgun ever (the flying cartridge that nearly takes out one of Epps' squad is especially neat).

Talking of Epps' squad, I realise it would have been expensive and maybe a bit pointless, but wouldn't it have been cool if they were made up of minor characters who aren't seen with NEST this time? Fig, Graham, that huge bloke from the first one...

I have a sudden overwhelming urge to edit the Wiki, they're claiming "All hail Megatron!" is an injokey reference to All Hail Megatron, when it's far more obviously an ironic callback to the scene of various Decepticons going "All Hail Megatron!" back in the first film (you know, the bit that almost certainly inspired the naming of All Hail Megatron).

IIRC you have to pledge etarnal loyalty to Walky as part of the registration process and assume the rest of the internet exists solely to provide grist for the thing - standard drill is to pop in here then every six months whenever you can't be bothered to do your own bitchwork.

Actually the thing that bugged me most was the awfully abrupt ending.
Megatron & Sentinel dead in 20 seconds, Optimus says "that's that then", cue Linkin Park and the end credits!

My version's better, as Prime's last line is in Russian.

RotF had an awful, rushed ending of the first film, and DotM was a rushed copy of the second one's ending. That's not even funny.

It reminded me exactly of that bit in Monty Python & the Holy Grail where suddenly the animator died and the cartoon peril was no more.[/quote]

Morshower too... I didn't even realise he was in the movie the first time around.

I can't work out why Morshower agreed to do it - it's not some neat little cameo role where everyone can go "****! Morshower! How cool is that?" - it's a crappy couple of lines that any extra could have said.

Sorry, he didn't!

Phew! I did think that the guy who had the tiff with Wang bought it as he was operating Lasercopier, but Lennox seems to specify that Wang was the only death...

True enough, but when too much zeal for murder comes from the supposed good guys it becomes difficult to tell the difference between them and the bad guys.

I'm not sure whether they do anything which could realistically be considered murder - Sentinel and Demolishor are no more than disabled, perhaps temporarily, and neither situation comes close to cold blood. With Sentinel especially Optimus has just had a blatant lesson taught to him about what happened the last time he let a battered villain run off.

For what it's worth, I'd say the Decepticons' executions are just as justifiable; the problem there is someone has to give them the idea, which seemed a pretty heavy handed way of making Dylan look like a dick - something that was already pretty obvious as he'd already eschewed a fairly clear-cut chance to run off.

I don't think he was that angry when he shot the prone Demolisher in ROTF.

Seemed pretty pissed to me - Demolishor had just rampaged through Shanghai, killing several NEST troops and probably a few civilians as well, ignored at least one order to surrender and shown no remorse whatsoever for his actions.

See LOTR, Star Wars, X-Men, Other films.

Showing Magneto mercy really worked out for the movie X-Men, didn't it? All those people dead in Last Stand come from the X-Men imprisoning a dangerous threat they couldn't hold. And Star Wars would be the one where one of the heroes shoots someone under the table to remove the threat, right? Carlito Brigante doesn't kill Benny Blanco when he has the chance, and dies in a train station as a result. How many people has Batman killed by insisting on throwing the Joker into various prisons and asylums he always escapes from?

Thus, we're led to believe that the Autobots are only good because they like humans, while their regard for their own people and their own world (Even if it was totally effed in the A, I like to think I would still have a place in my heart for Earth) seems a little bit broken.

So let's say Earth gets ravaged by a nuclear war, and is either completely empty or so close to empty it might as well be. This happened ages ago, and is something you've long accepted. You move to Mars, populated by six billion Martians. You love Mars, and you love its' people despite the odd bad apple. You're put in a situation where you have to chose between the alive place where you and your friends and billions of largely innocent people live and call home, and a burnt-out husk which has been basically meaningless to you for years and years. Pretty easy decision for me, TBH, and the euphoria of saving the right one would easily overcome any pangs about wiping out an old wasteland.

[wolfbolt86]

If the Autobots did take any prisoner, how would they keep them? There probably is not any type of jail to hold them, and how would they disarm them? Also the cons would probably be killed off anyway after a trail.

There really is no justifiable reason for the Autobots taking prisoners. There is no real way of transporting a prisoner and there is no storage area.

[Blackjack]

I read the comic adaptation. Pretty laughable, but they killed off the Twins right after Sentinel shoots Ironhide. It's also pretty stupid for them to display all the caskets of the TFs killed in Rising Storm.

The art is pretty rubbish, though. No two ways about it.

I have a sudden overwhelming urge to edit the Wiki, they're claiming "All hail Megatron!" is an injokey reference to All Hail Megatron, when it's far more obviously an ironic callback to the scene of various Decepticons going "All Hail Megatron!" back in the first film (you know, the bit that almost certainly inspired the naming of All Hail Megatron).

It's a bit of wanking around for the Wikiers, innit? They think everything is a reference to G1 stuff, when All Hail Megatron is one of the instances where it's the other way around...

Can I just say how much I like Prime's insane armoury - knuckle dusters and the biggest ****ing shotgun ever.

Not to mention swords, shields, a glow-axe... I like it.

Talking of Epps' squad, I realise it would have been expensive and maybe a bit pointless, but wouldn't it have been cool if they were made up of minor characters who aren't seen with NEST this time? Fig, Graham, that huge bloke from the first one...

Yeah, shame they didn't... especially since IIRC Fig's actor was interested in returning. Wasn't Graham Carly's brother? I vaguely remember that Carly's brother really resembles Graham.

The huge bloke (Burke) died or was at least crippled in ROTF during the Demolishor attack. I bet he wouldn't mind Optimus executing the big 'Con.

I can't work out why Morshower agreed to do it - it's not some neat little cameo role where everyone can go "****! Morshower! How cool is that?" - it's a crappy couple of lines that any extra could have said.

Yeah, friends of mine who are fans of 24 were bummed that Morshower didn't had as large a role as he did in ROTF.

Really it's the type of lines that, if spoken by one of those military extras no one would bat an eye at.

Seemed pretty pissed to me - Demolishor had just rampaged through Shanghai, killing several NEST troops and probably a few civilians as well, ignored at least one order to surrender and shown no remorse whatsoever for his actions.

Couldn't agree more. Demolishor pretty clearly runs over every single vehicle in his wake, not to mention killing a bunch of NEST soldiers including Burke. And property damage. And, if IDW comics are to be believed, Demolishor specifically chose Shanghai because it's a densely populated area.

Also, even if Prime is in his G1 self that day, how would they even transport Demolishor if they were to capture him?

[Warcry]

If the Autobots did take any prisoner, how would they keep them? There probably is not any type of jail to hold them, and how would they disarm them? Also the cons would probably be killed off anyway after a trail.

There really is no justifiable reason for the Autobots taking prisoners. There is no real way of transporting a prisoner and there is no storage area.

Although there's obviously a huge difference between a human soldier and a giant alien robot, the logistics of keeping a Transformer imprisoned really aren't that hard to grasp. Sector Seven kept Megatron on ice for the better part of a century without any problems, and they would have been able to do so indefinitely if Frenzy hadn't snuck into their super-secret base by hiding in Mikaela's purse. And I think it goes without saying that a prison built with Autobot technology would be infinitely more reliable than one cobbled together by early 19th-century humans.

Not only that, but if Prime was a soldier in a real-life army and did what he did -- firstly by ordering his men to give the Decepticons no quarter, and secondly by summarily executing two beaten, harmless enemies -- he be put on trial for war crimes, convicted and either tossed in jail for the rest of his life or lined up against a wall and shot. And he'd deserve it, because both of those things are rightfully classified as atrocities.

That doesn't mean that I disagree with it. If I was fighting a war against an implacable enemy intent on killing or enslaving everyone on my side I'd atrocity the shit out of them and worry about the consequences later. And the Autobots have always had their fair share of soldiers who were willing to do evil things for a good cause and compromise their morals to get the job done...but it's kind of unsettling to see Optimus Prime fall into that category.

If it had been Ironhide or Sideswipe or one of the Wreckers had done it, I'm not sure I would have even batted an eye. But I grew up with an Optimus Prime who was summed up nicely by one line in his profile: "He would be a more effective military commander if he were more ruthless, but then he wouldn't be Optimus Prime." Movie Optimus has that ruthless streak, and damn if he isn't a lot more effective because of it...but just like the profile says, once he crossed that line a part of what made him Optimus Prime died.

And you know...I kind of like that. I'd love to see how Optimus deals with what he did, because I suspect he'd be a lot less willing to justify it than his fans are. In fact, he'd probably be harder on himself than anyone. But the nature of the Movieverse mostly precludes that kind of introspection in the robot characters, which is a damn shame.

[wolfbolt86]

Although there's obviously a huge difference between a human soldier and a giant alien robot, the logistics of keeping a Transformer imprisoned really aren't that hard to grasp. Sector Seven kept Megatron on ice for the better part of a century without any problems, and they would have been able to do so indefinitely if Frenzy hadn't snuck into their super-secret base by hiding in Mikaela's purse. And I think it goes without saying that a prison built with Autobot technology would be infinitely more reliable than one cobbled together by early 19th-century humans.

The driffence is that Megatron was already frozen. It was easy to transport and keep it secrate when the prisoner is already in a state were they can not fight back. I do not think that there any holding areas even built.

[Cliffjumper]

Megatron became the focal point for a Decepticon rescue effort which involved the deaths of numerous people, and might have led to the Allspark falling into his hands. How it happened is irrelevant - if Frenzy hadn't sneaked in, it's possible (indeed, likely) the heavy weaponry of the rest of the Decepticons would have been brought into play. Once the Decepticons had found Megatron, his release - or at least a violent attempt to bring his release around - was inevitable.

It's worth considering that this Optimus has been through a lot more than versions of old - his planet's dead, so are most of his friends, and he's up against a group of Decepticons who seem to be fairly dangerous - this lot don't seem the sort to sit around in their underground fortress waiting for America to ship a weapon across the Oregan desert, or waste all their time bickering over who gets to be leader. This sort of thing probably prevents the luxury of Saturday morning cartoon morals.

Plus look what happened the last time Prime didn't kill his opponent then and there - he got run through from behind, and the Earth would have been destroyed if Sam hadn't found the Matrix. Said enemy is then involved in a plan which results in the destruction of Chicago and once again has Earth in deep shit. The biggest criticism of Optimus is that if he had hunted down Megatron after ROTF, the events of DOTM might not have happened. It's almost like Optimus Prime's undergone character development and actually learnt something - which is probably why he doesn't just amble onto the spaceship and assume the Decepticons are going to stick to the deal, for example.

Comparisons with human soldiers are irrelevant, as in the real world soldiers are just humans, however evil they are, and are pretty harmless without weaponry. Demolishor is, what, 50ft tall and is only taken down by the strained efforts of the two most powerful Autobots on Earth.

What exactly is the big plus about him being cyrogenically frozen anyway? Assuming that no-one ever bothers rescuing him, he's effectively dead regardless unless they're planning to defrost him periodically and ask him if he's still a git (and seeing as he had no problem issuing vague threats when he had guns pointed at his head, I'm not sure how being on ice would make him a happier person). It's just that that way the Autobots would get to wash their hands of the hard decisions while squandering huge resources and keeping a potential threat alive.

[inflatable dalek]

Talking of Epps' squad, I realise it would have been expensive and maybe a bit pointless, but wouldn't it have been cool if they were made up of minor characters who aren't seen with NEST this time? Fig, Graham, that huge bloke from the first one...

Whilst it might have been nice to see some of them again, the film was already stretching credibility on how how many of Sam's old friends seemed to be following him around. Both Simmons and the NEST base that has both Lennox and the Autobots happening to be within quick journey time was pushing it, all the regular NEST boys just happening to live in roughly a straight line between the shuttle base and Chicago would have been a bit much. It would have wound up like the last two seasons of 24 where Jack moves to two completely different parts of the country and still all the regulars turn up (except Pierce in season 8. Screw his small role here, that's the real injustice, just stopped short of being the only other actor in every season... bah).

IIRC you have to pledge etarnal loyalty to Walky as part of the registration process and assume the rest of the internet exists solely to provide grist for the thing - standard drill is to pop in here then every six months whenever you can't be bothered to do your own bitchwork.

In that case: Hello future Wikie editors! Please accredit me for pointing out your dumbness.

I read the comic adaptation. Pretty laughable, but they killed off the Twins right after Sentinel shoots Ironhide. It's also pretty stupid for them to display all the caskets of the TFs killed in Rising Storm.

According to the Moonbase 2 podcast in the book one goes down after taking a [Cosmic Rust?] bullet for Bumblebee, making the other go apeshit. It's actually a bit of a shame, fanboy pleasing move asside, that it didn't make it in the film. With the Twins getting so much screentime last time (and generally seeming to be a lot more popular with more general non fans I know than the web might make seem the case) that would have probably been a bigger "Oh hell" moment for a lot of people who aren't exactly sure which of the secondary characters is which.

As for the various killings, whilst I'm pretty much with Cliffy and Blackjak, I can see the other side as well. These are family films, they're not hardcore serious war movies and Optimus is a children's hero. Of the various virtues such characters are supposed to impart to their young fans "Extreme pragmatism" usually isn't very high on the list.

[Shrapnel]

Seemed pretty pissed to me - Demolishor had just rampaged through Shanghai, killing several NEST troops and probably a few civilians as well, ignored at least one order to surrender and shown no remorse whatsoever for his actions.

Yea, alright, maybe he was a bit wound up then.

Showing Magneto mercy really worked out for the movie X-Men, didn't it? All those people dead in Last Stand come from the X-Men imprisoning a dangerous threat they couldn't hold. And Star Wars would be the one where one of the heroes shoots someone under the table to remove the threat, right? Carlito Brigante doesn't kill Benny Blanco when he has the chance, and dies in a train station as a result. How many people has Batman killed by insisting on throwing the Joker into various prisons and asylums he always escapes from?

I'm just saying it is dubious morals for a Hollywood film to be putting out to THE KIDS. To be honest, one of the things that always p*ssed me off in the G1 times was that Prime was such a nancy boy, those endless thought bubbles of "Oh my Primus, am I a bad man?" If anything it enamoured me to the Decepticon cause!

But, you can't just assume that Prime has seen what has happened with the Joker and should think on, or that Prof X paid quite the price for not building a good enough plastic box and that Prime should heed. They did so out of the moral high ground that many comic and film and everything has drilled into us for years, that the good guys have a weakness and it is compassion, and without that they are erring far too close to bad guys.

I am not really criticising this choice, I am just surprised that they went with it.

So let's say Earth gets ravaged by a nuclear war, and is either completely empty or so close to empty it might as well be. This happened ages ago, and is something you've long accepted. You move to Mars, populated by six billion Martians. You love Mars, and you love its' people despite the odd bad apple. You're put in a situation where you have to chose between the alive place where you and your friends and billions of largely innocent people live and call home, and a burnt-out husk which has been basically meaningless to you for years and years. Pretty easy decision for me, TBH, and the euphoria of saving the right one would easily overcome any pangs about wiping out an old wasteland.

Well, it's quite a stretch, but in that situation I would choose Mars, of course, but I would probably weep a tear or two over the passing of Earth. I'd maybe even shout "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!" as it imploded before my eyes.

[Summerhayes]

I never got the impression the G1 Autobots weren't shooting to kill, just that they were bad shots.

[Blackjack]

According to the Moonbase 2 podcast in the book one goes down after taking a [Cosmic Rust?] bullet for Bumblebee, making the other go apeshit.

Sentinel shot Skids and seemed to melt his upper body down. Mudflap charges in with 'it's revenging time!' and Sentinel goes 'Mudflap is it?' Blam 'or was it?' And goes on to say that even the most laughable of Prime's team wants to die like 'true' Autobots.

It's actually a bit of a shame, fanboy pleasing move asside, that it didn't make it in the film. With the Twins getting so much screentime last time (and generally seeming to be a lot more popular with more general non fans I know than the web might make seem the case) that would have probably been a bigger "Oh hell" moment for a lot of people who aren't exactly sure which of the secondary characters is which.

A good chunk of the non-fans I've asked, while they are aware who Ironhide was, were very confused that the Twins weren't in the movie. But then if they were really included, and killed, it would look to blatant as a 'look we know you hate the Twins so we killed them off please write a good review' move.

It's about as jarring as Nightcrawler's disappearance in X3.

Agree that it would've been much more of a 'oh hell' moment. People who have read the novelization — are the Twins killed off there as well?

[inflatable dalek]

Agree that it would've been much more of a 'oh hell' moment. People who have read the novelization — are the Twins killed off there as well?

The "Book" mentioned in my previous post was the novelization.

I've now put my thoughts into a (rather lengthy I'm afraid), write up:
http://thesolarpool.weebly.com/1/post/2 ... ilers.html

After thinking about it for a few days I've completely changed my mind about Megatron, I now actually really like how he was handled by the film. Go me for being fickle.

[Summerhayes]

Nice little article, but the Wrecker (god knows which one) says "Nancy Wanker" not "Nazi Wanker". A much more fitting insult, I think.

[Cliffjumper]

EXAMINES. And I thought it was "Poncy wanker".

As for the various killings, whilst I'm pretty much with Cliffy and Blackjak, I can see the other side as well. These are family films, they're not hardcore serious war movies and Optimus is a children's hero. Of the various virtues such characters are supposed to impart to their young fans "Extreme pragmatism" usually isn't very high on the list.

I'm just saying it is dubious morals for a Hollywood film to be putting out to THE KIDS. To be honest, one of the things that always p*ssed me off in the G1 times was that Prime was such a nancy boy, those endless thought bubbles of "Oh my Primus, am I a bad man?" If anything it enamoured me to the Decepticon cause!

I'm very cynical as to how many kids are going to see this film, or at least as to how much were intended to. I mean, the IDW comics are based on a kids' toyline and their readership is almost certainly 95+% 25 and overs.

I'm not sure it's any more a family film than the self-consciously dark recent takes on X-Men and Batman are (both of which have/had toylines and children's cartoons alongside the films).

But, you can't just assume that Prime has seen what has happened with the Joker and should think on, or that Prof X paid quite the price for not building a good enough plastic box and that Prime should heed. They did so out of the moral high ground that many comic and film and everything has drilled into us for years, that the good guys have a weakness and it is compassion, and without that they are erring far too close to bad guys.

No, but Prime has seen examples where letting bad guys off the hook has had repurcussions, as outlined above... It's fitting that his tendency towards showing no mercy has increased as the films have gone on.

I am not really criticising this choice, I am just surprised that they went with it.

Me too, but a pleased kind of surprise. Seeing as this is the first continuity to consistently depict collateral damage and human casualties, to me a harder line fits well.

Well, it's quite a stretch, but in that situation I would choose Mars, of course, but I would probably weep a tear or two over the passing of Earth. I'd maybe even shout "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!" as it imploded before my eyes.

And there we agree - the scene itself was rushed and badly handled and the lack of any on-screen reaction from the Autobots is a bit silly (and undermines the drama, especially for a casual film-goer who has little idea of what Cybertron is). I'm not saying the reaction was right, just that I can easily see why none of the Autobots thought twice about the decision.

Sentinel shot Skids and seemed to melt his upper body down. Mudflap charges in with 'it's revenging time!' and Sentinel goes 'Mudflap is it?' Blam 'or was it?' And goes on to say that even the most laughable of Prime's team wants to die like 'true' Autobots.

God, the comics are terrible.

A good chunk of the non-fans I've asked, while they are aware who Ironhide was, were very confused that the Twins weren't in the movie. But then if they were really included, and killed, it would look to blatant as a 'look we know you hate the Twins so we killed them off please write a good review' move.

Budgetary reasons aside, I don't think it would have hurt to have them in it as background characters - maybe coming in with the Wreckers - and to either have them survive or die... In a way I find it a shame Bay didn't stick to his guns while maybe de-emphasising them.

I never got the impression the G1 Autobots weren't shooting to kill, just that they were bad shots.

The gunfights aren't so much the problem - it's the several occasions where the Autobots have the Decepticons at their mercy (is it "Divide and Conquer" were Optimus Prime beats up the entire faction?) and bits like that line in either "Prime Target" or "Starscream's Brigade" where some Autobot (it doesn't matter, they'll all the same in the cartoon) is missing and Prime won't act because there's no proof the Decepticons are behind it. That makes it cops and robbers rather than robot war.

For my money, though, in TF:TM at least Prime's intention was to kill Megatron before Hot Rod got in the way.

[Blackjack]

You know, I've been thinking about how tthe Fallen fits into DOTM. Take this for a bit:

Megatron serves the Fallen. But Megatron makes an alliance with Sentinel Prime. What if the Fallen didn't know of the alliance with Sentinel, and Megatron actually made the alliance so he could get rid of Fallen and be head honcho of the Decepticons or something?

Of course, things didn't go as planned. Sentinel was lost in space, followed soon by the Allspark and then Megatron.

So when Megs was resurrected he saw no way of going ahead with the Sentinel plan, so he cozies up to the Fallen. If the Fallen's plan works they get loads of Energon and there's no need to fool around with Sentinel. If it fails then plan B is what we saw in DOTM. Is why Megatron, Soundwave and the others didn't mention Sentinel during the events of ROTF.

[Quote=Cliffjumper]Budgetary reasons aside, I don't think it would have hurt to have them in it as background characters - maybe coming in with the Wreckers - and to either have them survive or die... In a way I find it a shame Bay didn't stick to his guns while maybe de-emphasising them.
[/quote]

Agree on that. Completely ignoring them is kind of lazy. Even if they did not want to feature the Twins, a line or two about where they are (dead, off to space, defected and joined the Decepticons, arrested for jaywalking...) wouldn't have hurt.

Poor Jolt got the short end, though. He's perfect background character/cannon fodder material.

[Warcry]

The driffence is that Megatron was already frozen. It was easy to transport and keep it secrate when the prisoner is already in a state were they can not fight back.

Didn't seem to be that difficult when they did it to Bumblebee...

Just how vulnerable the Transformers are to human tech seems to fluctuate wildly from scene to scene, so it's hard to get a good idea of how hard or easy it would be to take someone prisoner. But with the Autobots helping, capturing a badly-damaged 'Con shouldn't be much more difficult that it was to take Bee prisoner.

I do not think that there any holding areas even built.

No, probably not. But that's down to the Autobots' seeming disinterest in doing anything but kill 'Cons as much as anything else.

Megatron became the focal point for a Decepticon rescue effort which involved the deaths of numerous people, and might have led to the Allspark falling into his hands. How it happened is irrelevant - if Frenzy hadn't sneaked in, it's possible (indeed, likely) the heavy weaponry of the rest of the Decepticons would have been brought into play.

But until Frenzy snuck in the 'Cons didn't seem to have a clue where Megatron was. The only other thing that could have told them were the glasses, which were safe in Autobot hands. And frankly, it's more than a little bit silly that (a) Mikaela was allowed to keep her purse and cell phone while under arrest and (b) that her and Sam's belongings weren't subjected to scans to make sure they weren't sneaking in any robots. But then there wouldn't have been a climax to the movie, so...

Once the Decepticons had found Megatron, his release - or at least a violent attempt to bring his release around - was inevitable.

Honestly, if the AllSpark hadn't been in the same building I seriously doubt Starscream would have bothered.

This sort of thing probably prevents the luxury of Saturday morning cartoon morals.

You're right, cartoon morals are too simple for the complexities of the more realistic Movie universe. But so are the "kill 'em all!" video game morals you're applying. Killing everyone with a Decepticon badge is just as unrealistic as letting them walk away scot-free because that's what the good guy is supposed to do.

Take a look at how DOTM actually ends compared to the ending from the earlier script that made it into the novel and comic adaptations. In the original script Prime accepts Megatron's truce. Megs gets to escape, but he takes all his Decepticons with him to rebuild Cybertron and Earth is left in peace. In the final script Prime gives Megatron his comeuppance...and Earth is left swarming with hordes of nameless Decepticons who will be out for revenge and who are going to fight to the death because they've seen just what happens when you try to surrender to a supposedly-noble Autobot. Ending #2 leaves us with a better opening for a sequel, but Ending #1 is a vastly better net result.

I realize that's not entirely fair, because we have the benefit of knowing what happens in both cases and he didn't. But Prime's decision to kill Megatron makes things worse, not better.

Comparisons with human soldiers are irrelevant, as in the real world soldiers are just humans, however evil they are, and are pretty harmless without weaponry. Demolishor is, what, 50ft tall and is only taken down by the strained efforts of the two most powerful Autobots on Earth.

I disagree. Human POWs can escape and cause havoc with relative ease (I actually know someone who fought in WWII and escaped from Russian POW camps not once but twice). So do normal run of the mill criminals, for that matter. That doesn't mean we can put a bullet through the back of their head 'just in case'. The whole reason why the civilized countries of the world have established rules like the Geneva Convention for warfare is because it is easier and more practical to kill POWs than to keep them alive -- but we don't want people doing it. Transformers have different physiology and they're often more dangerous, but they're still living beings and I don't see why we should hold them to different standards than we would humans.

What exactly is the big plus about him being cyrogenically frozen anyway? Assuming that no-one ever bothers rescuing him, he's effectively dead regardless unless they're planning to defrost him periodically and ask him if he's still a git (and seeing as he had no problem issuing vague threats when he had guns pointed at his head, I'm not sure how being on ice would make him a happier person). It's just that that way the Autobots would get to wash their hands of the hard decisions while squandering huge resources and keeping a potential threat alive.

I don't think there's any question that if Megatron were captured he'd be held just long enough to be put on trial for war crimes and then executed -- which is fair enought, and the civilized way to do things. I don't see any reason why rank-and-file Decepticons can't be kept on ice until the leaders get sorted out. Once the Megatrons and Starscreams and Soundwaves are out of the picture they won't have much motivation to fight.

[Cliffjumper]

Didn't seem to be that difficult when they did it to Bumblebee...

The Bumblebee who made little attempt to escape as Sam and Mikaela were also at Sector 7's mercy?

But until Frenzy snuck in the 'Cons didn't seem to have a clue where Megatron was.

You want to put money on finding the same amount of information being beyond Soundwave? As in "can hack highly secure secret service transmissions and pretty loyal to Megatron" Soundwave?

Honestly, if the AllSpark hadn't been in the same building I seriously doubt Starscream would have bothered.

But the point still stands regardless - Blackout seems quite loyal to Megatron, and look at what he did to the SOCCENT base alone.

Take a look at how DOTM actually ends compared to the ending from the earlier script that made it into the novel and comic adaptations. In the original script Prime accepts Megatron's truce. Megs gets to escape, but he takes all his Decepticons with him to rebuild Cybertron and Earth is left in peace.

Mmmm, the Decepticons with a rebuilt Cybertron - there's no way that would come back and bite anyone's arse, is there? Appeasement's always worked in the past, after all. Also Prime honoured the truce with Megatron, he's dishonouring everyone killed in the conflict as well - how well would that sit with, say, NEST, the government or even the rank and file Autobots who have lost friends trying to stop Megatron?

I disagree. Human POWs can escape and cause havoc with relative ease (I actually know someone who fought in WWII and escaped from Russian POW camps not once but twice). So do normal run of the mill criminals, for that matter. That doesn't mean we can put a bullet through the back of their head 'just in case'. The whole reason why the civilized countries of the world have established rules like the Geneva Convention for warfare is because it is easier and more practical to kill POWs than to keep them alive -- but we don't want people doing it. Transformers have different physiology and they're often more dangerous, but they're still living beings and I don't see why we should hold them to different standards than we would humans.

Human POWs can't level cities, which would easily be within the reach of Demolishor without serious intervention (taking him down took the two most powerful Autobots on the planet), or call on loyal forces of huge capability as Megatron could have done. It's non-comparable with any real world example because they're huge robots - a closer comparison would be supervillain prisons like the Vault, Arkham Asylum etc., and they generally show it to be a stupid idea.

The idea was more-or-less tried with the Laurentian Abyss, which showed even holding Decepticon corpses was a risk as loyal troops would recover any useful bodies, revive them and then join up with other Decepticons and, say, try to destroy the sun.

Megatron has solid form for coming back and trying to basically bugger the Earth. If he'd been hot on a truce he would have done something about it before setting his troops on Chicago's civilian population...

I don't think there's any question that if Megatron were captured he'd be held just long enough to be put on trial for war crimes and then executed -- which is fair enought, and the civilized way to do things. I don't see any reason why rank-and-file Decepticons can't be kept on ice until the leaders get sorted out. Once the Megatrons and Starscreams and Soundwaves are out of the picture they won't have much motivation to fight.

Where exactly was the big chance to safely capture and secure Megatron in DotM? The bit where the one-armed Optimus Prime and six smallish Autobots are in the middle of a destroyed city surrounded by levelled buildings, with Megatron deciding he's actually going to side with Sentinel after all, kill Optimus and then go ahead with the plan? Same with Sentinel - Optimus is in no better condition than he is, and Optimus has to act before he recovers.

[inflatable dalek]

Nice little article, but the Wrecker (god knows which one) says "Nancy Wanker" not "Nazi Wanker". A much more fitting insult, I think.

EXAMINES. And I thought it was "Poncy wanker".

Eeek, I'd have failed than exam. Looks like the line is something we'll have to wait for DVD subtitles to sort out. But a wanker by any other name...

I'm not sure it's any more a family film than the self-consciously dark recent takes on X-Men and Batman are (both of which have/had toylines and children's cartoons alongside the films).

I've only seen the first three X-Men and so can't comment on The Amazing Wolverine and Pals or So How The Hell Does the 60's Setting Work With The "Near Future" Stuff In The Originals? Is Cyclopse Really In His 50's?, but certainly despite the second one in particular aiming for darkness, they're still generally presented as moral heroes who Do The Right Thing. Even supposed dark horse Wolverine only manages to cause the death of one person who isn't specifically trying to kill him at the same time when he ties up Brian Cox.

Equally, for all the grittiness in the Nolan Bat-films, he still doesn't kill or break his long established rules. There's a subplot in the last one of him being pushed to breaking point and coming close to it (especially with Eric Roberts), but the film's ultimate message is that despite all the shit you might throw at them people are generally OK and will do the right thing. In a purely pragmatic film the boat with the prisoners on it would have been blown up without a thought.

Of course, direct comparrisons with human crime fighters aren't entirely fair, there's a working judicial system to deal with them (it's hardly Batman's fault the prisons in Gotham are so crap).

No, but Prime has seen examples where letting bad guys off the hook has had repurcussions, as outlined above... It's fitting that his tendency towards showing no mercy has increased as the films have gone on.

On the other hand though, Revenge of the Fallen still happened despite virtually all the first film's Decepticons being dead at the start, including Megatron, and even if he hadn't come back events would have likely carried on as normal with just Grindor or someone acting as the Fallen's chief go to guy. Equally the events of the third film were set in motion decades ago and Megs seems fairly out of the loop for most of it, if he had Starscream had been hunted down after ROTF you'd have just had Soundwave running things. So to a certain extent, Prime's mercy doesn't seem more damaging long term than his ruthlessness.

Take a look at how DOTM actually ends compared to the ending from the earlier script that made it into the novel and comic adaptations. In the original script Prime accepts Megatron's truce. Megs gets to escape, but he takes all his Decepticons with him to rebuild Cybertron and Earth is left in peace. In the final script Prime gives Megatron his comeuppance...and Earth is left swarming with hordes of nameless Decepticons who will be out for revenge and who are going to fight to the death because they've seen just what happens when you try to surrender to a supposedly-noble Autobot. Ending #2 leaves us with a better opening for a sequel, but Ending #1 is a vastly better net result.

I can see why they changed it, there will be a fourth film sooner or later and if Megatron was still alive he'd be the lead villain in it (hell, there's a chance he'll be back even with the ending as filmed). If Prime let Megatron go and then he comes back three or four years later to kill and blow things up yet again he would look an idiot. And surely Ending 1 is the more sequel hunting one? Megs out there with the chance to rebuild and regroup whatever he says to Prime (how many viewers would take him at his word?).