Reassessing plot aspects of TF:TM in light of Revenge of the Fallen [SPOILERS for the latter, natch]

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Halfshell
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Post by Halfshell » Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:51 am

Brimstone wrote:Okay, I'm sorry, I think I must have given too much of what I was thinking and wrote too much in my post and so everyone missed my actual question. (I do that sometimes :))
I saw the actual question and answered it. Well, dismissed it as irrelevant to the matter under discussion, to be honest. But in short: no, I don't believe any Autobot specifically stated he was dead. But it's certainly how the viewer is supposed to interpret things.

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Post by Brimstone » Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:22 pm

Tramp wrote:That is a fatal blow.
Says who?
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Post by inflatable dalek » Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:51 pm

Brimstone wrote:Says who?

The dramatic requirements of the plot if nothing else. "Our hero's must restore Optimus from...a healing nap" isn't in the same league really is it? Plus everyone in the first film regarded Megatron as dead after his spark had been traumatised, suggesting this is very much the norm and both their resurrections are rather uncommon.

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Post by wolfbolt86 » Fri Jul 10, 2009 6:31 pm

Halfshell wrote:But in short: no, I don't believe any Autobot specifically stated he was dead. But it's certainly how the viewer is supposed to interpret things.
Brimstone wrote:Says who?
While no one but the Fallen comes out and say it, one should get that Prime bought it from not only from the hole where his spark is suppost to be, but also from the reactions by the NEST team and the Autobots at the air port. The Captian (or was it Major?) had the "oh crap" look as his team was being air lifted to the area.

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Post by Tramp » Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:55 pm

Brimstone wrote:Says who?
Numerous canon sources. The Spark is the life force of a Transformer. Extinguish the Spark and the Transformer is dead. There are basically three ways to permanently kill a Transformer:
  • Sustained and immense amounts of catastrophic injury

    Destruction of the brain casing

    Direct destruction of the Spark core.
Optimus suffered direct destruction of his Spark core. He took a blade right through it.

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Post by Brimstone » Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:00 pm

Tramp wrote:Numerous canon sources. The Spark is the life force of a Transformer. Extinguish the Spark and the Transformer is dead. There are basically three ways to permanently kill a Transformer:
Yeah, I read where you stated this on another thread, too. And I still say, so what. Where has anyone said that in this, the movie, canon?

And Wolfbolt, I was saying "Says who" to Tramps comment, not Halfshell's.

And Halfshell, so, lemme get this straight, you think you answered my question by dismissing it? lol! :)

Anyway, this is really stirring up more controversy than I intended. All I was stating was, when I saw the movie, I too immediately thought he was dead. Then I read the comic and read the novel where they state he's in stasis lock and said, "huh...did I miss something in the movie, did they ever actually state he was dead, or did I just infer that? I honestly don't remember." So thought I'd just ask the question (albeit, wordily).
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Post by Tramp » Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:07 pm

Brimstone wrote:Yeah, I read where you stated this on another thread, too. And I still say, so what. Where has anyone said that in this, the movie, canon?

And Wolfbolt, I was saying "Says who" to Tramps comment, not Halfshell's.

And Halfshell, so, lemme get this straight, you think you answered my question by dismissing it? lol! :)

Anyway, this is really stirring up more controversy than I intended. All I was stating was, when I saw the movie, I too immediately thought he was dead. Then I read the comic and read the novel where they state he's in stasis lock and said, "huh...did I miss something in the movie, did they ever actually state he was dead, or did I just infer that? I honestly don't remember." So thought I'd just ask the question (albeit, wordily).
The thing is that there are essentially two levels of stasis lock. One is a coma-like state, much like suspended animation. The second, is far more severe. It's called permanent stasis lock, also known as death.

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Post by Sir Auros » Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:52 pm

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Post by Summerhayes » Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:41 pm

Wow
I was going to post something about Bay not liking 2nd films that are all build-up to 3rd films or whatever, but this thread has descended into anarchy. Brimstone, have you ever heard the word "pedantic"?
lolz

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Post by Sades » Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:45 pm

I'm going to kill you all someday.

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Post by inflatable dalek » Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:37 am

Sades wrote:I'm going to kill you all someday.
Promises, promises...

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Post by Vin Ghostal » Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:56 pm

Cliffjumper wrote:Also agree on there being some sort of indication of a Plan B. Actually, implication of a Plan B that was a heroic failure, with Prime coming in just in time to save the whole thing from the shitter, would have been even better.
Indeed. My favorite episode of the original show will always be "Divide & Conquer," in large part because of the moments where the Autobots have to stand up on their own. Spike can be irritating, but it's still one of my favorite moments in TF lore:

Sparkplug: Decepticons. Looks like all of 'em!
Huffer: Oh, we're doomed! Without Optimus Prime, we're no match for the Decepticons!
Spike: We can't go down without trying! (Takes Jazz's gun and runs for the door) Prime would want us to go for it, no matter what the odds! Well, are you with me? Or do I fight this battle alone?
Sparkplug: Spike, you can't...
Huffer: But we can! We get your message, Spike! Autobots, transform!

A simple exchange, but one that still gives me goosebumps. Something like that moment where the Decepticons are closing in on the Autobot base and the Autobots are standing there, ready to fight with that "Oh shit" look on their faces...something like that in the new movie, where they tried and failed until Prime saved the day, would have been nice.
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Post by Sades » Sun Jul 12, 2009 8:27 pm

inflatable dalek wrote:Promises, promises...
I don't have to kill you - you're already dead inside.

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Post by Housewife2000 » Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:26 pm

My two cents: Seeing Movie '86 as a kid made me understand mortality in a way I just hadn't before - especially since the Marvel UK comics ran with the fact that Prime died, got replaced and stayed dead. It cemented in my head the fact that time moves on, everyone eventually dies and new generations arise to take their place.

The knock on effect is that it also made me despise stories that cheat death (ala ROTF) because they're basically delusional wish fulfilment. I find stories about moving on more believable than trying to undo the bad shit that's happened. When Prime buys the farm in ROTF, I don't think for a second that he's not coming back (even though part of me would be glad to see the back of the hyper-violent face-taking incarnation at that point). The demands of being a franchise constantly prevent real change (a fact that also scuppers long running comic book story telling) with resets and reboots constantly returning to the status quo.

All that said, I'm not going to try and argue that Movie '86 is a masterpiece - it's still all about selling toys at the cost of good plotting and narrative structure - but it does develop the mythology in a positive way by changing the mix and ultimately showing death to be final.

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Post by S_Windell » Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:42 am

Sir Auros wrote:Image
:clap:

Ogre, would you be kind enough to invade that thread about TF names and their meanings too? Thx!

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Post by Dead Man Wade » Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:43 am

Housewife2000 wrote:but it does develop the mythology in a positive way by changing the mix and ultimately showing death to be final.
Except that Prime still came back in the end.

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Post by Housewife2000 » Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:45 am

Except that Prime sill came back in the end.
Which - as you might imagine - I really disliked. It felt like a cop out. I didn't catch any of season 3 or Prime's return until many years later, so as a kid all I had to go on was the UK comics in which Rodimus Prime was the defacto future leader.

Thinking about it, Transformers was probably the most death filled comic a kid could read.

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Post by Blackjack » Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:19 pm

halfshell wrote:Would Revenge of the Fallen have been improved by the Matrix subplot being dropped and the spotlight being shone on the leaderless Autobots coming into their own in a bid to stop the Solar Harvester?
Yeah. The problem with the film to the general public (i.e. relatives, friends) is that the plot is too long-winded. First, the Allspark shards, then Jetfire, then the Matrix, then the Solar Harvester... too many MacGuffins. In the first movie, there was the AllSpark, there was Megatron. Simple.

And, yeah. It would be much better for Sam, Bumblebee and co to fly (not teleport) to Egypt on Jetfire, while the leaderless Autobots panic and do an 'oh shit we're so dead' kind of moment when the Decepticons arrive. For one, I had expected the Autobots (most or all of them) to watch in dread as Devastator is being formed, and then throw everything they have at the giant.

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Post by HeavyArms » Sat Jul 18, 2009 3:21 pm

Did anyone feel that maybe that the Megatron and The Fallen apprentice-master relationship feel rather Star Warsy and rather out of character for Megatron?
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Post by inflatable dalek » Sun Jul 19, 2009 10:35 am

It's certainly Star Warsey, though it's hard to call it out of character when we'd had so little screen time for Megs in the first one.

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