How come in the comic things didn't change more in 4 million years.

Tetsuro · Post by **Tetsuro** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:10 pm

And you've got to remember, Death Star was pretty frikkin' huge and it sported none of these problems...

...but why exactly are we having this conversation anyway? How did the topic shift from "what the hell were everyone doing for four million years" to this?

Post by **Hound** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:00 pm

Originally posted by Rurudyne
Cybertron could be a self supporting structure built around an ordinary world but not fully attached to it in a conventional sense. Or it could be built over a cold dead rock like the moon. Or it could be hollow.

Except that the gravitational pressure that something that size would generate would heat up that rocky world several hundred thousand degrees and it would become molten.

There's mention of Cybertron's core in the comic and cartoon and no mention of it being molten rock.

LKW · Post by **LKW** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:07 pm

[In response to Tetsuro's question]

Because this place suddenly got impressively intellectual?

*Goes off to find a tweed blazer and a pipe to chew on thoughtfully*

Rurudyne · Post by **Rurudyne** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:14 am

Originally posted by LKW
[In response to Tetsuro's question]

Because this place suddenly got impressively intellectual?

*Goes off to find a tweed blazer and a pipe to chew on thoughtfully*

Well, I guess that's better than than a zoot suit and a bananna cream pie ... but then again, TF Universe Cartoon Physics are a bit more realistic than Looney Tunes Cartoon Physics.

Post by **inflatable dalek** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:30 am

Maybe nothing changed because deep down beneath it all Transformers are just very dull people?

Post by **Hound** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:57 am

Perhaps for 4 million years they stood around going...

"So, what d'ya wanna do tonight?"

"I dunno, whatta you wanna do tonight?"

"I dunno, whatta you wanna do tonight?"

"I dunno, whatta you wanna do tonight?"

And so on...

Rurudyne · Post by **Rurudyne** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:20 am

Originally posted by Hound
Perhaps for 4 million years they stood around going...

"So, what d'ya wanna do tonight?"

"I dunno, whatta you wanna do tonight?"

"I dunno, whatta you wanna do tonight?"

"I dunno, whatta you wanna do tonight?"

And so on...

We have a winner!!!

(I actually used that in my TF: Genesis fanfic

)

coppertop · Post by **coppertop** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:17 pm

This is one of those things where IMO, there was an definite right and wrong way to right this story in the 80's, and unfortunately, both the comic and cartoon got it completely wrong. Ironically, Michael Bay was the first to not have this most stupid and implausible story-line: a four-million year war. First, let's just get on the same page: nothing personal, but I don't even want to address some of the stupid arguments I've read here- I skimmed them without really reading them, waste of my time. (Nor do I want to get into any reverse-theory-of-relativity thing.) I might read/address them if we were talking about 400 year war. Heck, I'd consider some of what people had said about technology, war and why things wouldn't change that much even if we were talking about 4,000 (a long-ass time for a sentient race.) But look at all the technological advancements the human race has made in the past 40 years. We put a man on the moon. 300 years ago we had just invented the telescope and were taking our first real look at other planets. The internet, which really has changed everything in our lives and is the beginning of the information age- we've not even begun to understand its ramifications- has been around (in common use) only about 10 years. The idea that a war would last 4,000,000 years is an insult even to the mind of a child, even the most forgiving and reverant TF fanatic (which I was.) It takes millions of years for carbon-based organisms to evolve from one-celled organisms to many-celled, to develop RNA/DNA replication, for those muli-celled organisms to become parts of a larger body, etc. etc. It takes comparatively a very, very short time for a race which knows itself, which has achieved sentience, to control evolution itself, to rush headlong toward its own advancement, convenience and comfort, and possibly destruction. That is where we are at, as of the industrial age. Even in overlaying our own human slowness and 20th century characteristics (Western only- Ironhide is southerm, Wheeljack is from Jersey, how comforting) on machines which have achieved true intelligence- in other words, let's just say that in order to be truly sentient, a non-carbon-based lifeform must be as slow and mistake-prone as we are, despite no evidence of this in our own AI research- and even if they the Transformers didn't have their own machines, which they do- Teletran One: they still control their own evolution, as we now do. They manufacture themselves, and develop- this is a fundamental aspect of their race. The idea that the Transformers could have a war lasting millions of years far exceeds any moment of stupidity in the cartoon or comic. It is the dumbest, the most unforgivable aspect of the whole story, and it's a damn shame Simon Furman carried on with this in his money-makin' books, though it's probably neigh impossible to rewrite it at this point. (I will anyway.)

The set-up was all there in MTMTE, as the reason for the Ark leaving, in the cartoon at least, was to look for energy. Of course, that brings up the issue of why such an advanced race of inorganic life should have any problems with energy- they could be entirely solar/nuclear powered, then again the war has drained their resources, so the premise is plausible enough for the story. Later in MTMTE both armies seem to be in a race to get back to Cybertron (a plot which amusingly is dropped entirely afterward.) MTMTE is actually a good story, but they really blow it in Ep. 4. "Must try to contact Megatron...Are you there, Megatron?" "Shockwave! It can't be!" Sure OK, it's going to be Cybertron reaching the newly-revived Decepticons, not the other way around.

Instead of any communication, any attempts to contact Cybertron in 1984 should have been met with silence. It should have been a dead planet for eons, its surface littered with the hulking warriors from both sides. The idea of it being a dead world is right on, but you don't want to have the planet freezing and floating in space- bad idea, the Transformers would know their planet was freezing and evacuate. Or the idea that the war would knock the planet out of orbit? Retarded. Besides, what would happen to them physically in the deep-freeze of space? Could they be revived from that state?

Allow me to rewrite this whole story, for all the good it'll do at this point. A war, lasting maybe a few THOUSAND years, develops between Autobots and Decepticons. I'm not sure how long it should have taken for the Transformers to have evolved to that point- is it possible for a self-replicating circuit to evolve as cells did on Earth? Probably not, so the whole Quintesson story-arc could be kept as-is. Somewhere in the middle of this war (could be at any point, really) the Decepticons develop "the art of Transforming" we know and love so much. Cyberton does not get knocked out of orbit, or have to deal with an asteroid or any such nonsense. The energy resourses required to fight this war are enormous, and eventually, the war itself is what burns out the planet. They run out of energy, shortly after the expedition party leaves and crash-lands on Earth, and remain not "as Megatron leaves it" according to Shockwave's assurance, but completely dead, for 4 million years, until the Decepticons on Earth are revived and build the space bridge in order to revive their army (followed shortly by the Autobots.) This is of course, assuming that you can have a big ball of metal in space in orbit around a sun, with no atmosphere and everything would remain preserved. I think it would have to have no atmosphere or else decomposition would occur- come to think of it that's fine, the robots they find and revive could be preserved underground, just as they were on Earth.That should have been the story line- IT'S SO EFFING OBVIOUS!!!- and the writers blew it. It's impossible to try and graft a plausible reconcilitation between the actual version and something reasonable ala Origin of the Constructicons, Why do Autobots Fly Sometimes. Forget Staxus and Blaster, this rewrite can't have them the way it was told. (Or continue to torture logic all you want if it makes you feel better: a hallow planet the size of Saturn?)

With this version, the story becomes not only a story not only of alien robots relating to humanity and bringing a war to Earth, but also a race to Cybertron between the Autobots and Decepticons to revive their respective armies. All the new characters introduced in Season 2 and beyond would be found there, taken back to Earth, revived and refitted with an Earth mode. Part of the plot would be in figuring out who these robots were, and what side they are on. There could have been some great stories about Autobots accidently reviving robots who pretend to be on their side (say the Constructicons) to help them rebuild the Ark, only to sabotage it and turn on them when found out. With Cybertron being a dead world, it would be about as useful as Mars is to the human race now, and it could be years before enough energy could be sent from Earth to revitalise the planet.

Tetsuro · Post by **Tetsuro** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:43 pm

If they really have to have the crash-landed TFs lying dormant for four million years, they could as well be thrown through a time warp or something from the present (or near past) into the distant past before crash-landing to eliminate the ludicrously long time span.

Post by **inflatable dalek** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 12:44 am

Originally posted by coppertop
Ironically, Michael Bay was the first to not have this most stupid and implausible story-line: a four-million year war.

IDW beat him to it.

Rurudyne · Post by **Rurudyne** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:29 am

Originally posted by coppertop
This is one of those things where IMO, there was an definite right and wrong way to right this story in the 80's, and unfortunately, both the comic and cartoon got it completely wrong. Ironically, Michael Bay was the first to not have this most stupid and implausible story-line: a four-million year war.

(snip)

Dude, a well written rant.

But here's the thing ... if the origional writers had been well versed with such notions as "continuity" (aside from the "Daisy Mae wearing the same hot pants week after week" kind of continuity) then they would have indeed scripted a richly textured and nuanced show.

But when dealing with writers you have to remember this: one day they'll write "Mirror, Mirror" or the "Trouble with Tribbles" ... and the next they'll give you "Spock's Brain". And that's when they at least try to pay attention to real science fiction science.

So what we are left with is the impossible that we must somehow accept as merely implausable.

Here I would say that Marvel was a much greater offender than the cartoon, or at least before they began endlessly repackaging the same basic concept in new and flashier animation (well, not always flashier

) rather than write anything new. By this I mean that it was Marvel that showed Cybertron as a world full of conflict. The toon at least had the place a more or less static and unpopulated wasteland because what little cleaning staff had remained had abandoned their jobs to work for Alpha Trion's and Elita-1's little splinter cell (not ... entirely sarcasm).

Anyway, the question then becomes: how do we make due with what we have and not really descend –too often– to the level of "Who would win between Supes and Prime?" threads.

That said, plot holes are wonderful opportunities for anyone who really wants to try their hand at writing and has no life ... er, has a really great idea for a story line that plugs up some of the holes. Yeah! That's what I meant to say!

shadowsfm · Post by **shadowsfm** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:04 am

1) the war was more then just 4 million years, thats just a fraction of haw long this war is

2) cyberton has no atmasphere, so there is nothing to freeze. when shockwave uses the space bridge, he transports air with spike, so he can breeth.

3) transformers dont rust or anything anyway

Post by **Hound** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:25 am

Originally posted by shadowsfm
2) cyberton has no atmasphere, so there is nothing to freeze. when shockwave uses the space bridge, he transports air with spike, so he can breeth.

Any small amount of air that Shockwave would transport via the spacebridge would quickly dissipate. They would need to transport nearly the entire atmosphere of Earth in order for something like that to work. Besides, there's numerous times in the 3rd season where they get to Cybertron via spaceship and the humans still manage to breathe. We also see fire on Cybertron in the first episode, which suggests there's at least oxygen there.

3) transformers dont rust or anything anyway

Except for that one episode where they do rust...

Housewife2000 · Post by **Housewife2000** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 10:36 am

The '4 million years' fact might seem ridiculous and lead to these insanely lengthy speculations and discussions, but without it you wouldn't have Beast Wars.

For my money the two best theories why nothing happened in 4 million years are:
a) Cartoon – everyone runs out of energy within a few years of the Ark crew leaving, and the whole planet goes into stasis lock. Shockwave records a message to Megatron which he leaves on loop until such a time as Megatron receives and responds.
b) Comic – Megatron test fires his stellar engines (the ones he built to turn Cybertron into a War World) and these knock the planet out of orbit. Apart from the departing Ark crew, everyone on Cybertron goes into stasis to avoid the effects of the freezing atmosphere, and awake only a few decades before 1984 when Cybertron settles around a new star.

Tetsuro · Post by **Tetsuro** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 1:43 pm

Originally posted by Housewife2000
The '4 million years' fact might seem ridiculous and lead to these insanely lengthy speculations and discussions, but without it you wouldn't have Beast Wars.

Actually you WOULD still have Beast Wars - just without the whole G1 connection. The whole "Hey, we're actually on prehistoric earth and not some alien planet" thing wasn't brought in until the second season, wasn't it?

Post by **inflatable dalek** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:52 pm

Originally posted by shadowsfm

2) cyberton has no atmasphere, so there is nothing to freeze. when shockwave uses the space bridge, he transports air with spike, so he can breeth.

The fact the Transformers use verbal communcation as default suggests they've always lived in air.

coppertop · Post by **coppertop** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:57 pm

Originally posted by Rurudyne
Dude, a well written rant.

Yes thanks, feels better to finally say all that.

Originally posted by Rurudyne
So what we are left with is the impossible that we must somehow accept as merely implausable.

It occurs to me that it might actually be more acceptable in the narrow minds of the writers (and the censors!) probably on a subconsious level, to say "millions of years" rather than "thousands of years" if for no other reason than it sounds less real. On those shows, the less real the violence is, the more it's turned into a dance, the more acceptable it is. I also remember now that MTMTE establishes that the war lasted millions of years within the first minute, so I retract what I said about Ep 4 blowing it. It was already blown.

Originally posted by Rurudyne
Here I would say that Marvel was a much greater offender than the cartoon, or at least before they began endlessly repackaging the same basic concept in new and flashier animation (well, not always flashier ) rather than write anything new. By this I mean that it was Marvel that showed Cybertron as a world full of conflict. The toon at least had the place a more or less static and unpopulated wasteland because what little cleaning staff had remained had abandoned their jobs to work for Alpha Trion's and Elita-1's little splinter cell (not ... entirely sarcasm).

This is true, it's as though on some level of consiousness they were doing something sensible, and on another level not at all.

Originally posted by Rurudyne
Anyway, the question then becomes: how do we make due with what we have and not really descend –too often– to the level of "Who would win between Supes and Prime?" threads.

That said, plot holes are wonderful opportunities for anyone who really wants to try their hand at writing and has no life ... er, has a really great idea for a story line that plugs up some of the holes. Yeah! That's what I meant to say!

It is fun trying to stitch this mess into a coherent fabric in many cases, but I have to draw the line at this. There are too many times when the millions year war rears its ugly head in both mediums, for example, the when the Arielbots travel back 9 million years to the very day Optimus meets Megatron, apparently at random. Screw that.

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:32 pm

Originally posted by Tetsuro
If they really have to have the crash-landed TFs lying dormant for four million years, they could as well be thrown through a time warp or something from the present (or near past) into the distant past before crash-landing to eliminate the ludicrously long time span.

Erm, why? This is kinda the point - there's no reason whatsoever for it to be four million years. There's nothing in the cartoon or comic that wouldn't work with a more sensible 4,000 year gap - there's still plenty of time for the Autobots to miss Prime (another random juggernaut though the four mill - every time after 1984 the 'bots lose Prime, they nearly wipe themselves out - they do something stupid like let that arse Grimlock run things; hell, he disappeared for most of Target 2006 and they nearly got killed - can you honestly imagine any Autobots surving for the big four mill without him around to bail them out of, I dunno, appointing Doubledealer or Dirge as their leader), for a whole new set of Decepticons to rule Cybertron, and so on.

In both continuities, they cheated for the Dinobot origin in both continuities (I'm tempted, actually, to think the four million was set by someone to bring them in, and then someone researched, found out they were miles out, and they then had to backtrack), taking that out as a reason. But also I do agree that they chose "four million years" as just something to say to the kids to make them really comprehend "LONG LONG TIME" without really thinking it through.

One thing I'm pondering, though, is the technological advancement... I get the idea of comparing it to our own, but the thing I'm wondering is if the TFs had hit an advancement plateau (or even a decline). The only technologies we have definitive proof of being developed post Earth is the binary-bonding process, right (well, and downsizing)? And personally I'd call getting a pilot a sideways step (at best) - outside of the Headmasters mini, the *masters made little impact, and with the honourable exceptions of Prime and Nightbeat, were useless tosspots... I'm just wondering if the TFs hadn't completed all their advancements around the time we're introduced, around the start of the war. It'd explain the decadent, decaying society we're presented with in "State Games" a/o.

I still prefer the comic's approach... it might raise more questions, but only really, IMO, because the cartoon's moronic "literally nothing changes" approach isn't worthy of any. Though TBH this is coloured by the cartoon's general failure to portray the whole thing as much of a war beyond a few instances (generally due to the constant, no doubt studio enforced but indebtabaly present, use of the Autobots as a reactive sort of robot police).

In short, DW, IDW and Bay all got it right on that one (even if I'm slightly unsure why DW needed to use the gap and cook up an explanation

optimusskids · Post by **optimusskids** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 10:07 pm

The Cons do seem to be lacking in science types

Maybe there was some Pol Pot type Con leader at some point which could explain it.

Wheeljacks reactions to changes whil he was offline hint at a previous period of technological stability.

"Big deal! Probably some Microheadtargetmaster with a Pretender shell!"

Halfshell · Post by **Halfshell** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 10:08 pm

Originally posted by Cliffjumper
can you honestly imagine any Autobots surving for the big four mill without him around to bail them out

Well, to be fair, the "every time he died everything went to hell" argument only really applies to the muppets based on Earth (or directly affiliated with the muppets based on Earth), who were primarily comprised of his lackeys who needed to tag along on his asteroid clearing mission in the first place.

"Prime! Prime! Let us go with you! Waaaahhhh!!!!"

The Cybertronian based ones had smart bots like Xaaron in charge. They never had to deal with electing Grimlock. Partly because they packed Grimlock off with Prime... it's almost like it was all intentional...