How come in the comic things didn't change more in 4 million years.

[optimusskids]

If it was hurtling through space where did the light come from.

[inflatable dalek]

Originally posted by optimusskids
If it was hurtling through space where did the light come from.

As far as I recall in the issue itself we only see the planet as it leaves its own system and when it arrives at the asteroid belt. I suppose in between Soundwave's lamp Cybertronain mode came in handy....

[Housewife2000]

I think it's somewhere in City of Fear that Xarron mentions Megatron and Prime disappearing after a 100 years of war. I don't recall any mention of when Cybertron was knocked from it's orbit, but since Alpha Centauri is some 4.3 light years away, and it's unlikely Cybertron was moving at the speed of light, a figure somewhere between 5 and 100 years would cover the time it took Cybertron to reach our system.

If it was hurtling through space where did the light come from.

There was no light - the planet was frozen, damnit, frozen!

[Wildrider]

Originally posted by Housewife2000
There was no light - the planet was frozen, damnit, frozen!

Never! The heat was radiated from Primus's spark and for that matter he powered the lights! He's a self replenshing natural resource in himself hence how he was able to create and sustain life in the firstplace, if he froze solid everytime he left a star's orbit.....well he'd just suck.

[Housewife2000]

He's a self replenshing natural resource in himself hence how he was able to create and sustain life in the firstplace, if he froze solid everytime he left a star's orbit.....well he'd just suck.

Blasphemy! That's like saying every time Jazz drives off a cliff he should fly. Primus is mimicking a planet rather than a space station, and his atmosphere is external – uncontained – and subject to outside conditions.
Actually, I guess that’s the fundamental difference in our viewpoints – you either go for a) Cybertron being like the Primus toy and War Within style space station, capable of transforming itself and rearranging its crust like some weird giant mechanical space onion, or b) it's a planet sized lump of rock and metal as hinted at in the comic's origin story and in Beast Machines, and just happens to be possessed by some weird light based God creature. While on the surface, those viewpoints are reconcilable, once you get into details and physics, they don’t really gel.

[Wildrider]

We need to know exactly how far Cybertron was from Alpha Centauri in order to calculate the distance needed for Primus/Cybertron to have an envrionment conducive to life. Then we could possibly try and work out at what distance does Cybertron's potential to be frozen come into play.

An atmosphere as such is never really explored in any detail (Certainly not in any detail worthy of the periodical table.) I agree in some apsects that if there was an atmosphere that could possibly freeze then it may be a theory worth exploring, however in my opinion there is a definite lack of freezable elements in any alleged 'atmosphere', oxygen is a no no, water is an extremely rare chemical and practically a myth (Unless your Ironhide..). I know all elements can be frozen if subjected to a low enough temperature, but still. (Water and Oxygen are crap examples in relation to the extreme temperatures of space I know.)

I think both the Marvel and DW theory of Primus's body is valid in this discussion. Primus is not a naturally occuring phenomenon he's a deity of sorts and I think the freezing theory is rendered void because of Unicron, if Unicron doesn't freeze then neither should Primus. Primus would not, I feel, be so vulnerable to the vaccum of space and reliant on solar proximity and that what ever sustained his existence prior to him becoming a planet/space station would still be in effect. That same factor would prevent his 'children' suffering any similar fate.

EDIT : Edited for stupidity

[Housewife2000]

This is getting pretty in depth - ok, to clarify, the atmosphere on Cybertron would freeze, not the planet itself. It could – as you suggest – have a warm core, but the surface would be covered with ice, preventing life from existing.

If you're after a figure for distance from the star, then look at the orbits of Neptune and Pluto: in the latter case, the outer layers consist of frozen hydrogen and water ice.

Unicron could have had an atmosphere at some point, although it's doubtful it would survive his transformations. However, like mammals, Unicron maintains his temperature by feeding – in his case on other planets – and thus fuelling any furnaces within him. Primus – more like a reptile in this analogy – soaks up solar radiation, but becomes dormant without it. You could say Primus is in balance with nature, whereas Unicron seeks to circumvent it.

Can I get a mad science professorship now?

[Wildrider]

Originally posted by Housewife2000
;
Can I get a mad science professorship now?

Only if I can too

I know you say only the atmosphere would freeze not Cyberton, but your theory is based on Transformers freezing as a direct result of atmospheric changes due to an orbital shift. Assuming transformers and Cybertron are essentially made of the same metals and resources derived from Primus then they would possibly be as resistant to atmospheric changes as the planet itself. So in theory if the transformers were to freeze as a result of the frozen atmosphere then Cybertron would essentially be an ice planet which I'm not sure would happen because of the unique nature of Primus compared to other planets.

I'm going to stand by my Cybertron /Primus as a self renewing energy source with a unique planetary core derived from Primus's spark. With energy and life sustaining heat radiating through Cybertron's outer layers in an almost circulatory sense. This providing sustenance for Transformers and resistance to any potential atmospheric changes that may occur.

I'm quite enjoying this discussion by the way *nods*

[Housewife2000]

Fair play, professorships to both of us - and this is a great discussion

I see where you're coming from with the whole 'renewable energy / self sustaining Primus/core' angle, but I'm sticking to my guns too!

I don't think Transformers could survive in a frozen atmosphere a) because they couldn't move – they'd be trapped in the ice like Skyfire in the cartoon, and b) because any internal liquids, such as oils, coolants or lubricants would also freeze, and the expansion caused by the freezing process could wreck their internal systems. Sure they're mechanoids/robots, and highly advanced and all that, but they're based on mechanical and electronic systems comparable to those on earth, and they're subject to the affects of heat, cold and pressure just like earth vehicles. Without force fields, combat suits or pretender shells, I can't imagine Transformers could survive for long in super-hot temperatures, at high pressures, or in the vacuum of space.

Primus might have a warm core at the centre of the planet, but I just don't imagine the entire population moving thousands of miles beneath the surface for warmth – I think they’d just go into stasis-lock or 'hypersleep' or something, and ride out the long winter until Cybertron parks next to a new star.

[inflatable dalek]

Originally posted by Housewife2000

If you're after a figure for distance from the star, then look at the orbits of Neptune and Pluto: in the latter case, the outer layers consist of frozen hydrogen and water ice.

Indeed, if a Vorn is a Cybertronian year then the planet's orbit is almost exactly the same as that of Uranus. Certainly a Saturn sized planet would have to be at least about the same distance from its sun as Jupiter is from ours (any closer and something that large gets crushed, to far and it's own gravity keeps it out of orbit). And that far things are pretty cold as a matter of course...

[Hound]

Originally posted by inflatable dalek
Indeed, if a Vorn is a Cybertronian year then the planet's orbit is almost exactly the same as that of Uranus. Certainly a Saturn sized planet would have to be at least about the same distance from its sun as Jupiter is from ours (any closer and something that large gets crushed, to far and it's own gravity keeps it out of orbit). And that far things are pretty cold as a matter of course...

That's not true.

Scientists believe they've found stars with Jupiter sized planets that orbit much closer to their stars than Jupiter does ours.

The larger the object the faster it orbits something. Same with distance, the closer the object the faster it must orbit.

Theoretically, Jupiter could orbit the sun at the same distance as earth, it would just have a much shorter year than us due to it's higher mass. Otherwise it would be drawn into the sun.

[inflatable dalek]

Originally posted by Hound

Scientists believe they've found stars with Jupiter sized planets that orbit much closer to their stars than Jupiter does ours.

Well, "Believe" is the key word their, according to my Mother (the big expert in my family on these things) it's apparently a somewhat dubious process that has a wide margin for error. She's lost all faith in it since the claim they've found a near Earth sized planet with something like a 30 day orbit (I'm not enough of an expert to know why that in particular rilled her so, I think it was the PR Blitz' attempt to pass it off as Earth2 even though with an orbit like that there'd be little or no similairty on the surface...)

[Hound]

Well, finding Jupiter sized planets is relatively easy compared to finding Earth sized objects.

I forget what technique they use to find earth sized planets but all they have to do to find the big gas giants is look for a star that wobbles a bit. One that gets pulled a bit off center due to the mass of the planets orbiting.

Our sun is pulled a bit off center by us and everything else that orbits it. I forget the figures though. Jupiter pulls it quite a bit but it's orbit is almost 12 years long. That would be a long time to watch for a star to wobble.

They've been able to detect much shorter wobbles that pull the star quite a distance.

That's why it's so hard to find planetary systems like ours. To find a noticable wobble from a star with giant planets far enough out from the star that leave enough distance for small earth like planets you have to be observing that star for decades.

One, we haven't been using the technique all that long. Two, you have to hope that the one star you're looking at for that kind of wobble does have a similar planetary system. Otherwise you've wasted a lot of time, decades.

The biggest thing is that the faster something orbits that star the easier it is to find. It's no surprise to me that the first Earth sized planet they managed to find is the one with a really close orbit to it's star.

Hell, Mercury only takes 88 days to get around the sun.

[chiasaur11]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the autobots have the Matrix Flame , and wasn't that implied to be able to make new troops at some point?

If you have a limited supply of trrops and your enemy can make more, that would change the war dynamic.

[Housewife2000]

I know I'm playing hard and fast with the established rules, but the whole 'Saturn sized' concept is preposterous. Besides the fact that Cybertron's cities are regularly drawn as visible from space, and the fact Unicron's footprint would be at least the size of the earth, there's no way it could geologically or physically exist. Even the 'honeycombed' doesn't explain it away unless there are absolutely huge chambers of empty space.

Ignoring the odd text box and throwaway line, established events such as humans visiting Cybertron and Transformers visiting earth with neither race experiencing any ill effects from atmosphere, pressure or gravity changes, all point to Cybertron and earth having comparable environments.

Ergo, Cybertron has to be the same size or (taking into account its metal constitution) smaller than earth. Since the 'Saturn sized' line is never mentioned again, much like the 'naturally occurring gears and levers' line, I think it has to be thrown out.

[Hound]

Well in the cartoon when we see Earth and Cybertron in close proximity Cybertron appears to be much smaller than the Earth, like closer to moon sized.

I've always thought of it like that.

Everytime we see a human on Cybertron they're not squished flat so Cybertron would have to be a small planet, being mostly a much denser element than the Earth it would have enormous gravity even if it were Earth sized.

As far as an atmosphere, I think it's clear that it has to have one, as we see humans walking around, talking and breathing without aid of a spacesuit on numerous occasions.

That said, it's not necessarily true that it would freeze every time it left the orbit of a star. With an internal heat source powerful enough and a thick enough atmosphere to hold in that heat, it's possible that Cybertron could sustain a temperature high enough for machinery to operate.

Jupiter has a moon, Io, that is the most volcanically active object we know of in the solar system. It's freezing cold away from the volcanoes, but next to them it's very hot. If Io had enough gravity to hold a thick atmosphere it would probably be a very comfortable tempature, if not a little too hot and it is much farther away from the sun than us.

[Rurudyne]

Originally posted by Hound
Well in the cartoon when we see Earth and Cybertron in close proximity Cybertron appears to be much smaller than the Earth, like closer to moon sized.

I've always thought of it like that.

Everytime we see a human on Cybertron they're not squished flat so Cybertron would have to be a small planet, being mostly a much denser element than the Earth it would have enormous gravity even if it were Earth sized.

As far as an atmosphere, I think it's clear that it has to have one, as we see humans walking around, talking and breathing without aid of a spacesuit on numerous occasions.

That said, it's not necessarily true that it would freeze every time it left the orbit of a star. With an internal heat source powerful enough and a thick enough atmosphere to hold in that heat, it's possible that Cybertron could sustain a temperature high enough for machinery to operate.

Jupiter has a moon, Io, that is the most volcanically active object we know of in the solar system. It's freezing cold away from the volcanoes, but next to them it's very hot. If Io had enough gravity to hold a thick atmosphere it would probably be a very comfortable tempature, if not a little too hot and it is much farther away from the sun than us.

Cybertron may have the same mass as Earth but still be considerably larger than Earth because much of Cybertron is, for won't of a better word, a building. There is a planet down there somewhere, or was once a planet down there somewhere (in some versions Cybertron would appear to be hollow at its center).

In BW we see the rocky inner planet but are realy given no indication how deep down the bots have gone to get away from their own version of Megs.

I would suggest that the surface of a rocky world isn't incompatable with the notion that Cybertron is also hollowed out. The way planets form the interior remains hot because of radioactive decay. Such an energy source would be valuable to a race of living machines who may mine out the core in a short sighted attempt to enrich themselves in a time of great prosperity or a time when previously enjoyed prosperity is somehow disrupted. If most of what is thought of as Cybertron were a structure, then you would logically want to keep some of the planet beneath (it's crust) for structural integrety even as you might heavily cross brace the superstructure to prevent buckling or the utter collapse of the remains of any planet.

[Hound]

Originally posted by Rurudyne
Cybertron may have the same mass as Earth but still be considerably larger than Earth because much of Cybertron is, for won't of a better word, a building.

A building made of metal. A planet sized building, made almost entirely of metal.

The Earth is made up mostly of relatively light elements. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth#Chemical_composition

It's mass is 5.98×10 to the 24th power* kg

So we're talking that amount of mass made out of metals that won't liquefy under their own pressure in the amounts we're talking.

There's no way you could have something Earth sized.

Edit:*Is there a way to make the numbers raised and smaller so that looks like it should?

[Tetsuro]

Well for one, Cybertron isn't solid like earth; thousands of tunnels going all over the planet through it's entire body. And even then, I bet they got some kinda gravity well generators or something...

[Rurudyne]

Originally posted by Hound
A building made of metal. A planet sized building, made almost entirely of metal.

The Earth is made up mostly of relatively light elements. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth#Chemical_composition

It's mass is 5.98×10 to the 24th power* kg

So we're talking that amount of mass made out of metals that won't liquefy under their own pressure in the amounts we're talking.

There's no way you could have something Earth sized.

Edit:*Is there a way to make the numbers raised and smaller so that looks like it should?

You are assuming conventional alloys or means of manufacture. Or even conventional matter for what that's worth ... as the great age of Cybertron would be a problem for materials unable to be renewed after any fashion.

A similar structure that men could build would collapse under its own weight. Maybe even a structure that most TF could build in the ordinary sense. But Cybertron was built by either Primus or Primacron depending upon which continuity you base the assertion on. Their abilities are not typical.

Even in real world structures we find cases where modern buildings of considerable size and weight are being held up by older stoneworks that still stand under loads that their builders never imagined.

The difficulty isn't the load but the foundation and stability. There is simply no way to rationalize Cybertron as a conventonal sort of building built on a foundation in stone. At least on any sort of planet whose core is still active and whose surface is still in flux (i.e. the sort of world that will sustain carbon based life).

Cybertron could be a self supporting structure built around an ordinary world but not fully attached to it in a conventional sense. Or it could be built over a cold dead rock like the moon. Or it could be hollow.

Any of these would allow for a self supporting structure wherein voids are structurally beneficial.