How come in the comic things didn't change more in 4 million years.

Halfshell · Post by **Halfshell** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:36 pm

Maybe, right, and this is the cool part... maybe - the entire planet (which, lest we forget was loosed of its orbit around whatever star and hurtling through space) went through some wicked cool time/space portal thing and ended up in the future.

So, whilst 4 million years passed on Earth, it was like a week and a half on Cybertron.

But, due to some wacky thing to do with cool time/space portal wormhole (wormhole! that's the word!) things, they all forgot. Or were so traumatised by it that they agreed never to speak of it again.

Yeah?

No, that's not a plot point, though I'm now seriously tempted...

Halfshell · Post by **Halfshell** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:38 pm

Originally posted by optimusskids
How did those on Cyberton build new troops wirthout the Matrix

Can't recall any evidence that they did.

Also were the Autobot triple changers newly built or some kind of conversion or brain swap.

Cybertron's a big place. Just because the Wreckers never met them before doesn't mean they haven't been about.

They could have been off-world. Or just had a massive facelift.

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:39 pm

But Percy says it's been 50,000 vorns...

EDIT: Yeh, I've always seen things like the Triples and Magnus as upgrades of already living TFs. OMFG! Maybe Magnus looks like Prime under that armour

Seriously, Mags' origins were only touched in a profile in the comic, and anything in a profile that's contradicted by an actual comic story should be ignored IMO.

Wildrider · Post by **Wildrider** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:45 pm

Hmm It would help if we had an idea of the numbers of TFs in the pre war populace, we only really have a couple of hundred 'named' TFs for each faction after the 4million years. I know we only focus on a select few whilst the war rages on amongst various cannonfodder in the background such as Chameleon, Scrounge, Hopper etc and we never see many fall by the way side. But it's safe to assume cities were laid to waste and millions have died.

Maybe we suspend our disbelief and believe that the 'named' ones we have now are the result of years of attrition and that thousands if not millions of civilians and soldiers have fallen and that these select few are the focus of our stories because of the very fact they are still here and have survived. There is evidence of a holocaust with Straxus at the helm and his method of ethnic cleansing must have killed thousands from all sides. Maybe it's that the characters have survived for so long is that they are just that survivors, whether by luck or by skill. That;s what makes 'em special, misfits and soldiers crawling through the chaos of war, striving to survive.

But if all you have left is survivors fighting survivors on a distant planet, then even their luck must run out. Hence the high mortality rate on Earth. I admit though that to expect a soldier to live through a conflict over 40k years is a bit far fetched, in the line of fire especially, but for the millions that die, a fortunate few creep through, like I said maybe by fortune, maybe by skill or maybe they just know how to survive.

Imagine you know 'Band of Brothers' an extremely rare example of a group of soldiers making all the way through a giant conflict, they lost some on the way, but some of them clung on.

Hmm but the 40k/4 Million years thing is just too big I guess, unless they made up for a bit, fell out again and were so embarrassed by the fact they'd thought about peace they erased it from everyone's memory.

Halfshell · Post by **Halfshell** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:45 pm

Originally posted by Cliffjumper
But Percy says it's been 50,000 vorns...

They all forgot?

Uhm.

What issue/story's that in?

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:56 pm

Aye, I'll never know why Marvel went for four million years. It's just a stupidly big number that doesn't serve any purpose - it's not like if the gap was, say, 2000 years any plot points would stop working (after all, they cheated in both the comic and cartoon to get the Dinobots).

The "they're the survivors" thing is what I try to tell myself (something born out by the population of Cybertron being well under a hundred by the end of the US series, it just still jars when you have to think about it.

Originally posted by Brendocon
What issue/story's that in?

"The Overrated One Where Blaster's A Dick".

BLASTER: Screw you, I've got to go out and disobey orders!
PERCEPTOR: Because Scrounge is missing?
BLASTER: Screw you, is he? Erm, I mean, yes, because a dickhead like me has friends and stuff.
PERCEPTOR: Well, I'll form a search party.
BLASTER: Screw you, no you won't. I'm staying in now.
PERCEPTOR: Oh, okay, we'll all stay in.
BLASTER: Screw you, I'm going out.
PERCEPTOR: It's 40,000 vorns since Optimus Prime disappeared
BLASTER: Screw you, it isn't.

optimusskids · Post by **optimusskids** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:52 pm

I remember there being more Transformers in the UK annual story the one where

Fusion sacrifices himself so Bluestreak can carry the Shatter bombs to safety

That must have been pre ark launch

I seem to remember there being lots more soldiers around
although my memory could be wrong.

I have a vague feeling about Prime being more of a general , which could imply that there were other armies out there.

Maybe everyone tooke the Fortress Maximus option and just buggered off somewhere out of the war.

Also most of the characters we do meet were from Cybertron a sfar as i can remember..

I think in the Comic Jetfire , Arcee, The Aerialbots, The Constructicons. Omega Supreme , the Stunticons and possibly the Protecobots and the Combaticons although I can't remember the origin story for the last two.

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:04 pm

Yeh, there did seem to be a lot more TFs around then... the only problem with the Fort Max cowardice angle (well, aside from the fact all of his crew except Highbrow were utter nutcases) is that it'd make even fewer Autobots to put up any sort of resistance against the Decepticons. You could argue they always had a pursing Decepticon force, as F***face Maxipad had, but that, combined with (according to Jhiaxus) most of the Decepticons sodding off and leaving Straxus in charge, would just mean even fewer Transformers left to sustain the planet-wide war, meaning casualties would be all the more noticeable.

optimusskids · Post by **optimusskids** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:16 pm

Is there actually any indication of when the Autobots lost there last city and started the whole resistance thing.

maybe it was a relatively recent event (clutching at straws here)

maybe they all sodded off to Lithone and only left the ones no one else liked behind on Cybertron.

I guess the Autobots could have sustained some kind of Vietcong tunnel warfare against the Cons but they would have needed there equivalent of the big bad Russian Bear to help with supplies etc.

Maybe there a whole bunch of Sky Lynx like space Gypsies out there, but it doean't really make much sense how come the Con's didn't wipe out the Autobots.

Unless they just kept them alive for troop training and sport. "We could devote enough resources to crush them completely but we're going to keep them round so we can have a bit of fun."

They did have a history of releasing Autobots fairly pointlessly so they could be hunted so maybe that was that on a larger scale plus it gave the troops something to do distracted them from scheming and plotting and back stabbing.

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:22 pm

I like that, actualy - the slightly Orwellian idea of the Decepticons perpetuating the war to keep their own troops in order (and it ties in nicely with some of the more machiavellian ideas we do know, like the Decepticons allowing the Wreckers to execute Trannis),

Aardvark · Post by **Aardvark** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:24 pm

It's also rather hilarious to think that while Grimlock had a nice nap for most of the war (And even when he was active, most of his team-mates thought he was an utter ****), went on to lead -- surely one or two of the Autobots who had been fighting for a few million years would have been a tad pissed off.

Post by **inflatable dalek** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:29 pm

Originally posted by Cliffjumper
Y (according to Jhiaxus) most of the Decepticons sodding off and leaving Straxus in charge,

Ohhh, mow there's a thought. Didn't Jhiaxus say they only left the really useless **** behind on Cybertron? There you go- Lots of Decepticons but all dumb as posts Vs. a few useful but underarmed Autobots (alright, Jhiaxus was biased in his opinion, but it does seem born out by the fact Straxus and co. seemed to do jack all in the gap...)

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:57 pm

Originally posted by inflatable dalek
Ohhh, mow there's a thought. Didn't Jhiaxus say they only left the really useless **** behind on Cybertron? There you go- Lots of Decepticons but all dumb as posts Vs. a few useful but underarmed Autobots (alright, Jhiaxus was biased in his opinion, but it does seem born out by the fact Straxus and co. seemed to do jack all in the gap...)

Regardless of Staxus' leadership, would you really think the Insecticons, coneheads, Mayhems, Triple-Changers, Predacons, Trypticon, Scorponok's squad etc, etc and so on were useless? They were certainly a fair match for what the Autobots had left.

Jhaixus' exact comment slips my mind, but I'm 99% it was more of the "small-minded" variety - those he left behind only wanted Cybertron, not everything else. If anything, those left behind would be more intent on wiping out the Autobots, and from what we see ("Smelting Pool" is 'present day', remember) they have the numbers to do it.

optimusskids · Post by **optimusskids** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:39 pm

http://s90690880.onlinehome.us/jhiaxus/ ... rannis.htm

http://s90690880.onlinehome.us/jhiaxus/ ... xaaron.htm

Looking at Trannis and Emirate Xarons Biog's on the obscure transformers page it looks like there were more Autobots but a lot of them were wiped out when there Council decided that the best move would be to surrender to the Evil crazed Dictator and throw themselves on his mercy.

The handful that survived were the ones said sod this for a game of soldiers

Tetsuro · Post by **Tetsuro** » Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:01 am

Originally posted by TFVanguard
Well, in the cartoon, Shockwave DID promise that 'Cybertron shall be as you leave it', and took that WAY to fargin' literally.

Well you certainly can't blame him for being inefficient!

Wildrider · Post by **Wildrider** » Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:52 am

Originally posted by Tetsuro
Well you certainly can't blame him for being inefficient!

Heh I don't know why but every time we saw Shockwave in the cartoon, I always got the impression he thought the whole war and Megatron resurfacing was a tad inconvenient to what ever he had planned at the time

But it was probably just the voice acting that made me think that, Shockwave always sounded depressed to me.

" *sigh* Yes Lord Megatron the space bridge will be active...."

(Switches off communicator)

"I had so much more planned today....." Wanders off

Housewife2000 · Post by **Housewife2000** » Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:58 pm

I posted this theory in another thread (this one), but it applies equally here:

"4 million years ago, the effects of the civil war knock Cybertron out of its orbit and off into space. The further Cybertron travels from its sun (Alpha Centauri), the colder it will get until the atmosphere itself condenses into liquid or freezes solid. At this stage, the entire population either goes into stasis lock or dies. When Cybertron approaches our sun, the atmosphere thaws, the Transformers come back on line, launch the Ark and Nemesis to carve a path in the asteroid belt blocking their route, the founders of the G2 Decepticon Empire pack up their bags and leave, and everyone else goes back into stasis as Cybertron spins out of our solar system. At some point before 1984, Cybertron falls into orbit around another star and everyone wakes up. This would help explain how very little happens to Cybertron’s status quo and technology in 4 million years."

As theories go, it's not bullet proof, but it's less of a twitching corpse than the theory that everyone on Cybertron just twiddled their thumbs for 4 million years.

And just to counter any arguments that Cybertron doesn’t orbit a star in the 'present day' continuity, I'd argue that it has to, in order for there to be any heat and light: the Neo Knights don’t instantly freeze to death, and it's core clearly isn't molten rock/metal, since it's Primus' head

Wildrider · Post by **Wildrider** » Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:14 pm

Originally posted by Housewife2000

And just to counter any arguments that Cybertron doesn’t orbit a star in the 'present day' continuity, I'd argue that it has to, in order for there to be any heat and light: the Neo Knights don’t instantly freeze to death, and it's core clearly isn't molten rock/metal, since it's Primus' head

No oxygen on Cybertron but every man and his dog survives there, the only people who ever get space suits are four kids and a teddy bear. So to argue a sun's presence solely on the absence of dead Neo Knights is flawed I think. I can accept powermasters etc surviving because of their exo-suits, but Blackrock is just in a suit.

There is no need for Cybertron to orbit a star as it isn't a natural occuring planet it's just whever Primus got tired and decided this is a nice spot to hide. Although I'm sure it will be a closer to one star than another so maybe there's an argument that Primus needs to be close to a star in order to continue to function.

The stasis lock theory from DW isn't a bad one and is a decent if balatant attempt to cover up a ridiculous time gap between leaving and arriving from Cybertron.

I'm not sure if Cybertron has ever been documented as moving closer to Earth, unless it's a dastardly sceme by some 'con to start the engines etc. (I'm probably wrong though)

That's the problem with trying to argue logic and science into transformers, for every bit you try and explain, there's always another bit you can't.

Maye Primus's spark is an equivalent of a core, but if the entire planet is a living body, albeit in a coma of sorts, then the need for a core in classic terms would possibly be obsolete due to the circulation of fuel etc to maintain (I don't believe I'm saying this) mechanical homeostasis.

I've gone cross eyed now.

verytired · Post by **verytired** » Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:17 pm

Originally posted by optimusskids
How did those on Cyberton build new troops wirthout the Matrix?

There were the Micro Masters, fresh built to conserve fuel by both sides very late in the war. And (for the decepticons at least) there's no sign of anything mystical around, like Matrices, Matrix Flames, Little Broken Off Bits of the Matrix, Tennagers imbued with Matrix power, what ever else I can't remember.

Which leads me to think that the Decepticon army is actually mostly comprised of highly sophisticated drones that think thet're alive with the 'real' living ones taking positions of power and not worrying about fighting (the mysterious Council leap to mind). So, the Autobots lacking the resources are left fighting for their lives against a seemingly endless horde of nobodies and schmucks.

Wildrider · Post by **Wildrider** » Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:21 pm

Originally posted by verytired
There were the Micro Masters, fresh built to conserve fuel by both sides

They were downsized weren't they? I'm sure I read somewhere that they volunteered to be downsized to consrve fuel or something and they had been transferred from normal bodies to their micro ones, rather than being created from scratch.

I shall scower my literature, I could be wrong.

TFARCHIVE FORUMS

How come in the comic things didn't change more in 4 million years.

Good thread