If you had the chance to take one thing OUT of Transformers...

[Cliffjumper]

I think the original cartoon would've been miles better if the Decepticons hadn't been so damn inept or if Megatron and Starscream hadn't been completely useless as leaders.

You can't help but watch and wonder why Megatron didn't destroy Starscream the first time he opens his mouth or how a moron like Starscream could even be any kind of legitimate rival for leadership.

More to the point, if Megatron and Starscream are the best the Decepticons can muster to lead them you have to wonder how they weren't defeated from the very beginning.

Yeh, I do think there's something badly wrong with their dynamic. I think a lot of my problems with Starscream could be solved if he was just a more believable schemer - he outright tells Megatron he wants to take over, and it makes the pair of them look like idiots, Starscream for being so blatant and Megatron for not paying attention.

The thing is, the Decepticons are tricky to do. Fight on Astrotrain aside, they're all pretty much happy to follow in the artoon whichever idiot's in charge - you've got neutered Soundwave and Shockwave, with the rest as basically grunt-level idiots. They're never likely to get anywhere because they unquestioningly follow a complete tool. Whereas in the comic, there are more smarter Decepticons out there, but we get the logical progression, which is that they spend as much time trying to off each other as battling the Autobots and are never a threat to anyone but themselves...

[Warcry]

Megatron definitely needs to be more effective for the Decepticons to get anywhere. In most continuities he's presented as being either a dimwitted thug or just flat-out crazy, which only makes you wonder why his own men are just starting to try and kill him.

Although, come to think of it I'd like to see some Decepticons (aside from Lugnut and Cyclonus) who are actually genuinely loyal to their leader. In the Marvel books and in IDW as well, the Decepticons started out as nothing but a cult of personality built around Megs. It's never really felt that way to me, though. The bulk of the Decepticons should be fiercely loyal to Megatron, really, or they wouldn't be there in the first place.

Of course, for that to work Megatron would either need to be very smart, or he'd need to be a lot more charismatic than most of the Megatrons we've seen.

[Blackjack]

Hasbro executives insisting that Unicron and the Fallen and Primus and the thirteen original transformers existing in every single multiverse as multiversal singularities.

Never worked. That Fun Publications stuff did attempt rather half-handedly to reconcile the Unicron bits, but do we need the f***ing Thirteen to be thrown in as multiversal singularities or whatever? The Fallen appeared for all of six issues before being killed, Vector Prime appeared for an entire show before dying as well, Liege Maximo appeared for all of one panel, Prima and Maccadam never even got a single line of dialogue, and Alpha Trion is retconned in.

All it functions to do is to make the TFWiki snobs go all high and mighty when people with sense suggest that the Fallen from Dreamwave (one of the original Thirteen created by Primus, master of entropy and betrayed Primus to Unicron) and the Fallen from the Movie (one of the seven Primes created by the AllSpark, behind-the-scenes leader of the Decepticons) are the same guy and everything.

Never work. Never will be.

[zigzagger]

Mmm, so many good ones already mentioned. The 4-million year gap is definitely one that's bothered me. I'd love to see a more condensed timeline.

But, I don't want to sound redundant, so I'll just add something else onto the pile.

That said, I'm going to open up a can of worms and say Cyclonus's armada.

I never cared who the 'true' identity of his damn Armada was. He appeared for, what, 5 seconds, and is never seen or spoken of again. And yet he somehow managed to leave a lasting impression on a lot of the fandom.

I just want to pretend that he never existed. It's less of a headache that way.

[Blackjack]

Children human sidekicks, come to think of it.

Sure, there were some good ones. Sam Witwicky, Mikaela, Buster Witwicky, and to some extent Sari... because they actually contribute to the plot. But other than that, I can't recall any other human kids that aren't bland or downright annoying. And in the Japanese redubbings, especially, they have waaaay too much air time without getting any proper characterizations.

[inflatable dalek]

Hasbro executives insisting that Unicron and the Fallen and Primus and the thirteen original transformers existing in every single multiverse as multiversal singularities.

Yep, I've no problem with all versions of the franchise using the same origin as a starting point, I just think it's a really bad idea for it to be the same origin with this multiversal bollocks and attempts to retcon it into continuities it was never part of.

I do like the fact Bay seems to have the liberty to do as he likes, I think this "The Fallen is always the same guy" stuff is going to be very quietly dropped over the next few years as a result.

[Warcry]

I find it funny that every single take on the franchise that followed has completely sidestepped the "there's only one Unicron" stuff by deliberately not using Unicron or Primus.

I think Hasbro has tacitly abandoned that idea, though. Their new take on the franchise appears to be "screw continuity, we're just going to make whatever toys we feel like" -- hence Seaspray, Jazz and Grapple get new toys in the movie-style line. If nothing else it seems to be driving the continuity nerds insane, so it's good entertainment.

[inflatable dalek]

The paedophilia from Kiss Players.

And on a similar note, this piece of class merchandise I was reminded of when hitting random Wiki pages earlier:

http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Image:AI_PVC.jpg

Actually makes Kiss Players look restrained.

And does anyone know why the captions on all the pics for TAI's wiki page are quotes from Spaceballs? I assume there's some sort of gag I'm missing.

[Cliffjumper]

The nerd factor if it being a dedicated spoof of a nerd film presumably compensates for it not actually being funny. As for its' connection ot TAI, who knows, when did that ever stop the ****ing Waki. Shortpacked probably made a strip about it or someone had it in their sig at the Allspark or it was shown at BotCon and some ace face made a joke about it.

[Blackjack]

I do like the fact Bay seems to have the liberty to do as he likes, I think this "The Fallen is always the same guy" stuff is going to be very quietly dropped over the next few years as a result.

What pisses me off more than it is that Hasbro is still adamant about it, even after ROTF.

Fans: "There are only seven Primes in the movieverse and they were created by the AllSpark!"
Hasbro: "Thirteen transformers were created by Primus but only seven were Primes. Yes, they are multiversional singularities."

Fans: "The Fallen died in ROTF! And in Dreamwave too! Vector Prime died in Cybertron! Primus was killed in the Marvel comics! And Unicron totally bought it in the G1 comics!"
Hasbro: "Multiversional continuities are a super-powerful multiuniversal ultra-awesome(insert several long sci-fi posh words here) guy, so a death in a particular universe would not mean that he stays dead for long."

Fans: "Explain this. ^"
Hasbro: "Our feeble three-dimensional human minds cannot hope to understand multiversional singularities."

[Rack 'n Ruin]

Hasbro: "Our feeble... ...minds cannot hope to understand..."

Yup.

[inflatable dalek]

The nerd factor if it being a dedicated spoof of a nerd film presumably compensates for it not actually being funny. As for its' connection ot TAI, who knows, when did that ever stop the ****ing Waki. Shortpacked probably made a strip about it or someone had it in their sig at the Allspark or it was shown at BotCon and some ace face made a joke about it.

I must admit to having been terribly slow on the uptake as to why Roadbuster's is full of Ghodstbusters quotes so I was worried I was missing something obvious (if tenuous, and not especially funny).

[Warcry]

What pisses me off more than it is that Hasbro is still adamant about it, even after ROTF.

To be fair, they don't seem to care about continuity or universe-of-origin the way we do, at least not anymore. Their attitude these days seems to be "Transformers are just Transformers. You decide how to sort them out on your own time."

I must admit to having been terribly slow on the uptake as to why Roadbuster's is full of Ghodstbusters quotes so I was worried I was missing something obvious (if tenuous, and not especially funny).

I'm still trying to figure out why exactly Streetwise is supposed to be Shaft.

[Blackjack]

To be fair, they don't seem to care about continuity or universe-of-origin the way we do, at least not anymore. Their attitude these days seems to be "Transformers are just Transformers. You decide how to sort them out on your own time."

Which is a good approach, I suppose... the new toylines are giving TFWiki a headache in sorting out, to which Hasbro simply replies 'just wait until fiction comes out', which I simply adore.

[inflatable dalek]

I'm still trying to figure out why exactly Streetwise is supposed to be Shaft.

One's a cop, the other... isn't. But turns into a cop car. And both have names starting with S. It's comedy gold.

[Blackjack]

One's a cop, the other... isn't. But turns into a cop car. And both have names starting with S. It's comedy gold.

I suspect that's the real reason...

Just because I'm bored, I went to TFWiki and asked this question in Streetwise's talk page under a pseudonym. Just to see what their response will be. Hur hur hur, I so sneaky.

You know, another thing I would take out of Transformers would be overblown, obscure references like this. I mean, the odd 'Subsector Hooks' line or 'TFW2005' cropping up on a billboard or quoting and earlier series or giving information to the fandom like what the Animated designers did, or even sneaking in an obscure character in the background is sort-of tolerable, but to base entire characters on a one-time joke that only a bunch of guys reading the TFWiki would likely to get? That Botcon comic, even though it features G2 characters, pisses me off on that particular reason. Streetwise, Rapido et al got shafted (see what I did there?) into personas dictated by TFWiki jokes.

[RUNAMOK]

Just on the Shaft-Streetwise thing. It's not take completely out of thin air, Streetwise's techspech on tfu.info atlest is oddly reseminent of the style of the Shaft intro. http://www.tfu.info/1986/Autobot/Street ... etwise.htm

Other than that I can't think of any specific element that I think should be removed from transformers at the moment.

[Blackjack]

Nope, don't really see the resemblance myself.

And even if there is a resemblance, close to half of the tech specs of the toys at that time are written in that kind of format.

[RUNAMOK]

Oh well, was the best reason I could come up with when I was wondering about the same thing.

[Auntie Slag]

The Protectobots had some quite interesting characters in their team. I think its a bit of a shame that Streetwise and Groove never really got the time their personalities deserved compared to Blades and First Aid. Hot Spot is just.. Hot Spot. He's just there, like Gary Barlow. But the other group members were rather fetching in their personality quirks (even if Streetwise is simply Nightbeat's cousin, and in fairness he did his schtick when smacking Starscream about in the Christmas '87 Marvel UK comic).

I loved the special treatment Blades got in Issue 125 and the GI Joe crossover.