Ye Olde Doctor Who Thread.

[Skyquake87]

Just got done with Destiny Of The Daleks. And what a chore that was. Underneath the ridiculous disco Movellans, the tired looking Daleks and a deflated Davros, there's a good story trying to get out. The Dlaeks using captured humans to tunnel into their city to retrieve Davros to help break the stalemate with the Movellans and the Movellans being an interesting, if far too clean and sterile, robotic race. Romana doesn't contribute much to the story, though and the Doctor's actions seem a bit..woolly.

[Skyquake87]

Just finished Battlefield. Enjoyed it a lot more this time around. As with the earlier 'Face Of Evil', its nice to see some hints of adventures we've not seen and the consequences of those. Everyone puts in spirited performances, although - and I'm sorry to say this - both Ace and Chun-Lee are a bit play school and over earnest in their delivery and mannerisms. Likewise, McCoy struggles to look convincing when delivering rage or anger - he pulls some unintentionally amusing faces. He works best for me in his quieter moments, delivering lines of quiet assurance or menace.

Bambera starts off as a typical bossy and knows best military type, but her interactions with Ancelyn rub off some of those sharp edges during the run of the story and I ended up warming to her by the end. As for the villains, Jean Marsh does sterling work with her character's motivation but its a shame her arc just tails off at the end, although it is rather touching to see her crumple when she realises her mortal enemy, Arthur is dead. Her son Morgaine, however, is just a cackling bore and I can't take him seriously.

Ancelyn is fab. I really like Coussin's performance and the positivity his character brings. He's clearly loving every minute and it really helps sell the premise of these Arthurian space knights. There's also a touch of Maid Marian's Robin Hood about him, which made me smile.

I really enjoyed the Brig showing up again. I've not really seen a lot of the Third Doctor stuff with Unit, so am not quite as sold on the character as other folk, but it was an impressive turn from Courtney. That scene where he faces up to the Destroyer saying "I just do the best I can" is lovely.

Sadly, like a lot of Who of this period, its the overall production that lets it down a bit. There's always the impression that the actors are waiting for an explosion or special effect to happen, and the video effects look cheap and tacky, even for the time. The action sequences are a little flat and restrained, and I really don't particularly care for Keff McCulloch's overly synthetic scores. I think they would have worked well in the early eighties, but by the time we get to the late 1980s, electronic music was moving beyond the sounds laid down here. It's also quite intrusive and sounds...well, cheap. All that said, with the miniscule budgets Who was being produced on at the time it's a miracle the show works as well as it does. There's just the sad feeling that this is very much a programme running on borrowed time and saddled with a slightly daytime/ children's approach to drama.

[inflatable dalek]

Yeah, it is a bit CBBC at times (not that there's any huge shame in that, the late 80's early 90's had some wonderful output from the kids department).

It is slightly worrying the decided to launch the season with two pensioners pottering about the garden centre though, any casual viewers not invested in the Brig already would likely have been turning off before Bambera appeared.

[inflatable dalek]

In some pleasing, if surprising news, the two missing episodes of The Reign of Terror are being animated for the DVD release.

That's pretty cool considering cost has always been cited as a reason for not doing more after The Invasion (which was possible thanks to co-opting money from BBCI that had been set aside for the Shalka sequel), so a barely remembered story without any famous monsters as a selling point never seemed likely to get the treatment, let alone before anything else. I'd say that, unless things really go tits up, that pretty much guarantees Tenth Planet and The Ice Warriors will be done as well (and who knows, Moonbase and Crusades? Anything with more than two episodes missing is likely still a bit much though).

It'll be interesting to see how they cope with the fact that the soundtrack for at least one of the episodes is apparently much of worse quality than many of the others.

Big Finish are co-producing the animation, and a test still can be seen here:
http://www.bigfinish.com/news/The-Reign ... g-Episodes

[Tetsuro]

I dunno, animating the final episode of The Tenth Planet seems kind of redundant to me, unless they use the little bit of live action they still have left of the regeneration scene because that's what makes that particular episode the most sought-after of the lost episodes.

Personally I'd much rather have Enemy of the World or Evil of the Daleks, two stories I enjoyed immensely. But hey, who knows! I know I'm gonna buy Reign of Terror and any other lost black & white story they care to animate.

[inflatable dalek]

Both Invasion and Reign are the only stories that have most of their episodes remaining that don't have any telesnaps. So them being the first to get animation actually makes a degree of sense, even if Reign wouldn't automatically be anyone's first choice, simply because if it turns out to be unviable to animate anything else then at least Ice Warriors and Planet have some other visual material a different sort of recon can be made out of (and indeed, was for the VHS releases).

As for animating the stories with all or most of their episodes missing, I've no doubt that both the BBC and 2Entertain would love to do it, the problem is cost. Even if they've found some way of doing Reign within the DVD budget, that's still only two episodes as opposes to six, or even 9. Fingers crossed for it getting more doable as time passes. Certainly if we don't get all the mostly complete stories finished with animation it won't be for lack of trying.

And yeah, if nothing else, the recon for Tenth Planet 4 would be fine on DVD. Though simply because of the episodes importance, the fact it's only the one part missing and the promotional potential in both the Cybermen and the first regeneration means it's more likely to get animated than anything else still missing.

What I do hope is that, however it's done, animation or recon, that we get more of the missing Ice Warriors episodes than on the VHS. IIRC it having less than half the running time that the two missing episodes means we lose lots of fun stuff on the video, including an entirely Penley subplot.

[Tetsuro]

Having watched a lot of recons lately...animation is infinitely more preferrable. A slideshow with audio is very hard to follow, I've watched every single black & white story so far except for like three in some form or another and I can't remember even a half of what happened in the ones that were mostly or entirely recons.

In fact, apart from a few stories I thought were stand-out in writing, I can remember jack all about them. I can't even remember what the plot in The Highlanders or The Massacre were! And the most I do remember about them is just stuff that I remember reading on wikipedia or something.

[inflatable dalek]

Just watched the new Spearhead DVD. Considering the long standing joke amongst fans that the first colour story is only filmed in shades of brown it's really nice to see it looking so vibrant, I've never noticed before Pertwee's first costume isn't actually black but more dark velvety blue.

I don't think, as good as it looks in comparison to the previous DVD, that it'd stand up too blu ray though, far too grainy still. Though I may have been spoilt by working my way through the absolutely stunning new prints for the B&W Emma Peel Avengers episodes this week as well(TV basically went wrong when colour came in I've decided, between this and the Twilight Zone it's clear it took decades for colour to come close to matching the best monochrome cinematography).

[Skyquake87]

Aye, these things weren't made with the unforgiving march of technology in mind I kind of like seeing things in their original broadcast format. I don't particularly care for the endless turd-polishing that new technologies inevitably bring with them, keeps people in work though, I guess.

For my sins, I've just watched 'Carnival Of Monsters'. Which was not so much of a carnival. More a Sideshow or Penny Arcade of the Monsters, but I guess that doesn't sound as exciting.

Not much really happens. The basic plot is The Doctor and Jo arriving inside an end of the pier entertainment machine that has random samples of different alien species, which the Doctor transports back to their various times once free of the machine. Very much an idea that's better on paper than in execution, methinks. Jo is reduced to pointing out the blindingly obvious throughout, needlessly most of the time. What's annoying is the assistant to the 'circus master' type is better characterised and written than one of the main leads! There's also some faffing with some grey aliens which add little colour or interest to proceedings, although an attempt to make them a bit more interesting with a spot of political agitating is carried off well.

Next for me: The Horror Of Fang Rock

[Cliffjumper]

In fact, apart from a few stories I thought were stand-out in writing, I can remember jack all about them. I can't even remember what the plot in The Highlanders or The Massacre were!

Congratulations, you're a moron. The Massacre is the finest script that side of Cartmel. Sorry it's low on merchandisable monsters.

[inflatable dalek]

I like Carnival, there's not much to it but it's got a jolly fun charm of its own.

Terror of the Autons is one I'm never entirely sure if I saw it on UK Gold or not, but this was certainly the first time in over a decade I'd seen it. As with Spiders Pertwee actually starts off well, with what should be a deeply annoying first meeting between him and Jo actually being rather sweet.

But some truly, truly atrocious and unnecessary CSO, bizarely poor lines from Holmes (that technician wittering on about boiled eggs for half an hour) and the Autons seeming a bit more rubbish this time (Rose seems to be generally disliked these days, but as well as being a good solid pilot I do think it got the Autons bang on right) means it's basically down to Roger Delgardo to fly the flag for non shit entertainment by being 5000 shades of awesome. And even he has that odd bit where he flings that scientist off the telescope with his bare hands, such physical violence isn't normally his style.

Congratulations, you're a moron. The Massacre is the finest script that side of Cartmel. Sorry it's low on merchandisable monsters.

Considering the never ending stream of convention and Forbidden Planet exclusives I'm still hoping for the Hartnell toy to get redressed as the Abbott. Hell, they could do a doppelgänger set with Salamander, Omega, Maxil and the Ganger Doctor. I'd buy it.

I do adore The Massacre, God knows what the theoretical target kids audience made of it, but the fact they made such an unashamedly grown up piece of drama with few concessions is wonderful.

And how can people not like The Highlanders? Doctor Von Wer ftw.

[Cliffjumper]

The most impressive thing about The Massacre is the extent to which it made me feel strongly about a historical event which I'd previously never heard of. It's easy to make, say, Thermopolae or D-Day into a good slice of drama because we all know it anyway. Hugenot massacres, not so much.

Autons just about pips Web Planet for Who story that's aged the worst (assuming we're all skipping CBBC stories like "The Runaway Commediene", "Love and that Fat Turd Who isn't on Telly Much Anymore" and so on). It's the ridiculous overuse of CSO that does it, though it's pretty yellow and brown as well. It's also the 3rd Doctor at his most twatty, which is a twat factor of about 2874 to the power of 10. At the end of the story - hundreds of innocents dead, a psychotic criminal of advanced intelligence stranded on Earth and after revenge (alright, the Master, but the Doctor seems unaware of how useless he is). What's the Doctor's view on all this needless carnage? "Athually I'm wather looking forwarth to it". Cock.

Michael Wisher's ace in it, though. "THERE'S NO NEED TO BRING FATHER INTO THIS!"

[Cliffjumper]

Next for me: The Horror Of Fang Rock

The best 1-2-3-MONSTER Who story out there, it's like someone filmed a Target book. Anyone writing for the show should be stapled into a chair and forced to watch that one five times before they're even allowed to pitch. It's about the only story I can't think of a single way to improve.

[inflatable dalek]

The most impressive thing about The Massacre is the extent to which it made me feel strongly about a historical event which I'd previously never heard of. It's easy to make, say, Thermopolae or D-Day into a good slice of drama because we all know it anyway. Hugenot massacres, not so much.

Yep, I'd don't think there's another period Who story that isn't set around points the audience would be very familiar with from school (even if something like Marco Polo isn't done these days there wasn't a kid at the time who wouldn't have known the basics). Closest is probably Madame De Pompadore, and even the most of us have know the basics of French regency thanks to The Three Musketeers.

It's the ridiculous overuse of CSO that does it, though it's pretty yellow and brown as well.

Considering he was clearly fairly canny at getting the show made on time and budget and looking reasonable, I don't get why Letts' had such a blind spot when it came to CSO. There's one impressive shot of the shrunken man in the lunchbox (I was expecting an Action Man as per later stories), but the rest of it atrocious. And his subsequent directing efforts are only slightly less OTT with it.

The best 1-2-3-MONSTER Who story out there, it's like someone filmed a Target book. Anyone writing for the show should be stapled into a chair and forced to watch that one five times before they're even allowed to pitch. It's about the only story I can't think of a single way to improve.

They could have improved it by not having Tom stop Leela taking her clothes off...

[For Skyquake's benefit]

SPOILER! (select to read)

Skinsale's death is a bit forced (as if Terrance had decided everyone must die but couldn't think of a way to top him off, going for the diamonds seems a bit out of character for him.

Other than that though, it's pretty much an awesome example of making something great out of extrememly adverse conditions. Shame it seems to be the point Tom and Louise's professional relationship started to fall apart. They only really made up in the last couple of years.

[Cliffjumper]

Closest is probably Madame De Pompadore, and even the most of us have know the basics of French regency thanks to The Three Musketeers.

I'd say that's one of the furthest away as the history is really just window-dressing - that one's about the Doctor loving a woman, and who she is doesn't particularly matter... If Madame De Pompadore hadn't existed and no historical substitute fitted what they needed, they could have made something up featuring a woman from 2617 or the planet New New New New Mars or somesuch shit and the alleged emotional resonance present in a particularly souless piece of heat-bait would have remained intact. The Doctor could have been a cnut to some random space guy rather than a **** to Louis the Whatever.

That really was a repulsive few episodes as far as the Doctor's personality went.

Considering he was clearly fairly canny at getting the show made on time and budget and looking reasonable, I don't get why Letts' had such a blind spot when it came to CSO.

I've never been able to work out the drastic drop in quality between Seasons 7 and 8... I mean, some of it can be clearly attributed to the format (Jo, the Master, Yates) and some to the decision to replace David Whittaker with Baker & Martin (which is the equivalent of Cadburys replacing Dairy Milk with Human Shit), but I can't for the life of me work out why the simple colour composition and design of the series suddenly gets so abysmal. Season 8 actually hurts your eyes when you're watching it.

[Skyquake87]

Thank you for the spoiler warning i has not peaked.

Very impressed with the opening episode. Is it all filmed on Videotape? If it is, its one of the few instances of that format giving the thing some atmosphere without flattening everything, although the superb lighting really helps too. The rocks, the mist... lovely. I do rather like Leela. I like how she has this slightly child-like quality about her, but is very sharp and brave too.

[inflatable dalek]

I think most of the stuff on the rocks was done at Ealing, but the vast majority of the show was done on video in Birmingham.

I've never been able to work out the drastic drop in quality between Seasons 7 and 8... I mean, some of it can be clearly attributed to the format (Jo, the Master, Yates) and some to the decision to replace David Whittaker with Baker & Martin (which is the equivalent of Cadburys replacing Dairy Milk with Human Shit), but I can't for the life of me work out why the simple colour composition and design of the series suddenly gets so abysmal. Season 8 actually hurts your eyes when you're watching it.

Well, with season 7 Spearhead was done and dusted before Letts came on board, Sillurians was written and his main contribution was limited to the CSO T Rex and changing the Doctor's last line, Ambassadors OF DEATH seems to have had an insane genesis that probably resulted in them ending up filiming whatever came even close to working, leaving just Inferno as the only one of that year that was fully controlled by him from start to finish.

I think the big stumbling block is that Letts and Dicks clearly didn't like the Earth format very much and that worked against their strengths. There may be fanciers Who stories, but there aren't many as tightly structured and plotted as Fang Rock is, there's barely a line that doesn't contribute something. There's very little evidence of that during Dick's time as script editor.

[Cliffjumper]

Mmm, it's the length that's the real killer with Pertwee stories. A lot of the stories aren't actually too bad (there's a relative lack of plot holes across the era, for example... sure, they exist, but there's nothing as "Oh my ****ing God, what is this about?" as, say, Android Invasion, Revenge or Attack), but there's so much padding and everything happens so slowly.

I mean, take The Mutants. Slice two episodes off that, hire some actors in place of James, Whitsun-Jones, Pertwee, Manning, weird bald guy, Stubbsy-MON, get a set designer who can see colour and a director who realises cameras can move, redesign the title sequence so it doesn't look like the Doctor's standing in a trench, and it'd be passable.

I know Letts had his whole "first night" rationale he mentioned as often as possible, but it doesn't help make it all that fun.

[Skyquake87]

From the handful of Pertwee stories I've seen, the length does grind things to a halt. Its like 'action action action!' and then... a lot of faffing about having arguments (normally in a labortatory or similar) before anything happens.

Anyway, HOFR part 2 - livened up by some additional marooned characters, all of whom are ace - the arrogant rich oik, the retired soldier, the skipper and posh bird (I'm rubbish with names) all adding some colour and additional intrigue (I'm interested to see how they dove tail into the main story). I like that we haven't seen much of the alien, apart from some blobby bits and green light. Cracking stuff.

[inflatable dalek]

You can certainly why both of Lett's successors shied away from more than four parts as much as they could. Though the last Troughton season is full of very very lengthy stories, and even something as Pertweeish as The Invasion somehow doesn't seem to drag as much as Planet of the Daleks.

Glad you're enjoying Fang Rock, the final realisation of the baddy really shouldn't work at all, but somehow it manages it (Tom managing to get the right mix of conviction and piss taking in their interaction really helps). Brilliant part three cliffhanger as well.

But remember, "It wouldn' 'appen wit oil".