A question for ADDL...

[Sir Auros]

...or if he's not around then any other German or someone who knows the answer. I am just curious as to why Germany won't allow games like Wolfenstein or Medal of Honor without first censoring out all the Nazi stuff. Well, I can understand it being sensitive, but I've always heard that the Holocaust is not taught in German schools either and that a large part of World War II is generally ignored there. Is that true? If so why? I hope this doesn't come across as offensive, I'm just curious about your country.

[Plasmodium]

Wasnt Wolfestein banned from being released in Germany?

[Halfshell]

I'd imagine the oversights in the education system are for similar reasons to the Boston Tea Party being overlooked in the UK's National Curriculum...

[Quick Switch]

Or the Rape of China by the Japanese Armies in the late 1930s.

Revisionism (or flat out denial) exists on many levels, and many nationalities.

[Halfshell]

Hmm. I wouldn't really classify it as Revisionism, as the events are just not mentioned in the syllabus, as opposed to being taught from a slanted viewpoint... and the info in Germany and England is readily available to those who want it... it just isn't promoted...

I think "Underplayed" would be the best term

[Quick Switch]

Aye.

Another way to look at it.

Oh yeah, here's an interesting tidbit about the Japanese: schoolchildren are taught the United States was the agressor in statrting the Pacific War in WWII. Quaint, isn't it?

Although it's almost as funny as Palestinian children being educated from textbooks that don't even acknowledge Israel's existence...

[Weirdwolf and Monzo]

Originally posted by Quick Switch

Oh yeah, here's an interesting tidbit about the Japanese: schoolchildren are taught the United States was the agressor in statrting the Pacific War in WWII. Quaint, isn't it?

"December 7, 1941---A date which will live in infamy...."


Keep in mind that I work for a Japanese company, and I have no qualms with them. The example which you mentioned is a perfect example of revisionism. If the Japanese childeren are taught that the US were the agressor against them, then have them all loaded up on a big arse boat, and have them look down at the wreckage of the USS Arizona. Had we have been at war with them already, do they actually think that we willingly lined those ships up in nice little rows for their benefit? Yes, I guess, in a sense, we were the agressor...after that fateful Sunday morning.

However, it is fortunate how things eventually turned out. Japan did eventually turn more into a manufacturing society (I guess the term you could call it...). They gave us Transformers, didn't they?

[Sir Auros]

Just another reason Japanese culture (or lack thereof) is stupid.

[BIONICS]

Originally posted by Sir Auros
Just another reason Japanese culture (or lack thereof) is stupid.

Hrm, that was a pretty asinine comment.

[Denyer]

Originally posted by Sir Auros
Just another reason Japanese culture (or lack thereof) is stupid.

...they have an organised bootleg section in most music stores. That's cool. They gave us the only decent animation for decades. They're still the best technological innovators.

Sure, they like to fasten onto other nations' fads and enjoy them. Big deal...

This post (and many others) represent what Denyer regards as what passed for his wisdom, and is not intended to stand as anything more than a generalising and vague statement. Not legal tender. Void where prohibited.

[Sir Auros]

Originally posted by Denyer: They gave us the only decent animation for decades.

Ugh, anime is the main argument I have AGAINST japanese culture.

[Jetfire]

You have to admit, like it or not, anime does tend to be animated better than the average western cartoon, which I believe is sent mostly to korea which is cheeper and lower qualty.

[RCOSD]

Originally posted by Stuart Denyer



This post (and many others) represent what Denyer regards as what passed for his wisdom, .

so that explains so much of Denyer's posting

[Redstreak]

Originally posted by Stuart Denyer


This post (and many others) represent what Denyer regards as what passed for his wisdom, and is not intended to stand as anything more than a generalising and vague statement. Not legal tender. Void where prohibited.

This should go in your sig, man.

R.

[Addl]

Originally posted by Sir Auros
why Germany won't allow games like Wolfenstein or Medal of Honor without first censoring out all the Nazi stuff.

This indeed is a fact I have asked myself and talked about with friends, parents, and teachers a lot... and you never come to a satisfying end.

Most people here are not only ignorant, but stupid with an intellect like 10 meters country road..... which is a fact on humans in general, no matter which race or citizen.

You see every month that somewhere in the world someone rallies a group of simple minded around him to do something.... no matter if terrorism, or self-justice of an angry mob, religious fanaticals, or nazi-supporters.

Especially in times of need, a man, a "guide" out of misery, is welcome and people believe him, if he says it convincing enough and adresses your own feelings and needs.
This has happened everywhere in the world to all times, still now, but the largest, most devastating from of it resultet in WW2.

Aside from that, it is very normal to gather a group of people and excite them for your cause.

That is why I alsway laugh at statements like "how was it possible".

This germany today not only is different as it is founded on democratic rights, but the people are different. But still to not resurrect dangerning Pro-German ideas and an overreaction nationalism, this time of our history and its symbols are blended away in the daily life.

I find it stupid, because (almost) all of the people of that era are gone and the newer generations grew up in a different world with different ideals.

They want to blend it out, keep us away from it, but, in my opinion, thus making it even more interesting and fascination.

Yes the information is accessable to those who want in form of books, articals and films and all sides (Wehrmacht, Holocaust, Life during the war at home, politics) but it is not done in school.

Maybe because it is a huge topic and they do not want to create and Pro-German dreaming kids in school.

Sorry fact for me is, that the dumb masses I talked about in the beginning never comes in contact with it all.....

All they know are war movies, a few names and propaganda books, thus becoming misguided neo-nazis.

I believe it is only good to open up on this subject, not only for those who want, and objectically do it in school.

You are not allowed to show the Hakenkreuz in the public, do anti-semitical speeches or play music of that era.

Not that anyone would want to I know, but the fact the government forbid it with police force is wrong.

The Government should work on a way to prevent it because noone WANTS to play or hear it.... but not by force like forbidding a kid to watch TV and it does it, when the parents are not at home.

You are not allowed to put the swastika marks on model airplanes or ships from the WW2 if displaying them in public.

In the museums, they often do not paint the swastica on the displayed stuff, after restauration.

And as I said in the beginning, if you say openly that your are proud of being german or just say you like to be born here, you are immediatly marked as neo-nazi.

Why can't there be a normal patriotism.....

And thus, politically right music is forbidden aswell as all games with swasticas, or over-brutal stuff in terms of youth-guidance.

But... if we were not the ones we are, there would have been no jets or rockets in the 40's and now no Daimler-Benz, BMW, or Porsche.

... and no beer.

On a side note: It was an american standing order in the 1940's after the war to collect and destroy anything regarding the german military history and military glorification since before Word War One.
That is why many statues, buildings, and museums were destroyed by the allies to finally suppress and stop this agressiveness which came from germany since 1870.

I wish they would let it rest finally. Anyone can play or watch what he/she wants and noone here is to blame for anything that happened 60 years ago and noone wants to pay for things that happened 30 years before you were born.

[Quick Switch]

I think "letting it rest" is a concept which will never exist in Germany.

For one, I can't imagine Jewry the world over letting sucessive German generations forget their loathsome past during WWII.

Then again, one can say the same thing about the Japanese, who will never hear the end of Chinese criticism, specifically for the brutal occupation during the '30s. Specifically, the horrible "Rape of Nanking."

[Sir Auros]

Originally posted by Addl

And as I said in the beginning, if you say openly that your are proud of being german or just say you like to be born here, you are immediatly marked as neo-nazi.

Wow, how can that ever be good in the long run?

[Starscreamsghost]

Originally posted by Sir Auros
Just another reason Japanese culture (or lack thereof) is stupid.

Ugh. Brend, I would have words with you...

[Sir Auros]

How about if you have words with me instead if you're going to be discussing me? That was posted a loooong time ago anyway, so you should've raised an issue with it then.

[Addl]

Sir Auros, it isn't good in the long run..... at least that is what we feel....

I have a neighbor who has the german flag in his garden and people look at him not too nice.

There is no patriotism here.... I went to the military for one year, but I was the only one of my friends to go. They all did one year civil service because military = patriotism = dumb = neonazi.
Now this comparison is WAY too simple, but to do your military service is not positivly recognized here... especially not by the girls. They always look at you as if a simple bloke. They want their boyfriends to deny military and do "cool" civil service.

On the one hand, people want to be self independent and not rely on military help from other nations, on the other hand, they like to hide behind the regulations of our military: No attack war, no missions outside Nato, no violence, lets talk it out.
(We are beginning to develop.... look at Kosovo or Afghanistan)

We still have conscription, because the military has an.... erm.... history of taking control . They wanted this not to happen again, so they wanted a "Bürgerwehr" an army of citizens defending their country. But our military is not allowed to cross Germany's border, meaning we can fight an attacker on german soil, but are not allowed to follow into enemy territory. The Bundeswehr is not an attack army.

This is 60 years so and the whole issue was started by the allies (especially France, which wanted to tear down ALL industry and make Germany a farming land with big soup kitchens to feed us).

It is a stange feeling to see USA after the 9.11. decorated with US flags and the patriotism involved. Those speeches on "god bless" and "we are proud to be american". In France it is similar. They love their country.

We here are tought to critizise everything the government does. We tend to hate our country more than the others. If we tell that we actually are proud of our achivements or our nation of "lyrics and great minds" we immediatly are looked upon as neo-nazis.
We have no bondage to the our country and the bondage to our past has been cut off.

A healthy and well thought patriotism, involving europe as whole would be good.

Originally posted by Quick Switch
For one, I can't imagine Jewry the world over letting sucessive German generations forget their loathsome past during WWII.

That is a fact which is both true and angering for me.

It has to become history, not to be forgotten, but to put it at rest. To have learned from it, but not debate endlessly and point towards us.

Every nations has its dark spots where they say it is "history" like the eradication of the population of middle america and the caribbean by the spanish or the indian campaigns of the US. The slavery in the CSA, aswell as Stalins terror reign. US atom bombs and British bomber tactics against civillians by "Bomber Harris".

But, it seems, war losers do not have the right to call it "history".