Dalek and Warcry's Endless Star Trek Thread

Chat about stuff other than Transformers.
User avatar
Cyberstrike nTo
Protoform
Posts: 4186
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2002 5:48 pm
Location: In the Dead Universe known as Indianapolis
Contact:

Post by Cyberstrike nTo »

Warcry wrote:I haven't even considered going to see this after how much I didn't enjoy the first two. I'll probably see it on DVD or something eventually, but the first two made it pretty clear that the reboots aren't for me. I'd imagine I'm not the only old-school Trek fan who thinks that way, and the franchise has never really been embraced by the same generic action movie crowd that Star Wars or even Transformers manage to bring in. So if the fans are souring on things the box office performance is going to show it.

Also, I wanted to reply to something dalek said in a different, comic-spoiler-filled thread but didn't want to totally derail yet another comic discussion thread into Star Trek rambling, so...


It probably depends on the market you're in, and how the shows were/are distributed there, but here at least Voyager has always been the stronger of the two shows and it's not even really close. Going back to when they were first broadcast, unless my memory is failing me DS9 was crammed into a Saturday afternoon death slot while Voyager got broadcast in prime time. And Voyager thrived in syndication -- it ran on local channels for ages, and then on the cable sci-fi network (alongside TNG and TOS but, notably, not DS9) for ages more. I think the Trek reruns have finally been dropped from the rotation this year, but there was Voyager available on my TV screen for two decades and I can't say that about DS9.
IIRC in the US both TNG (I saw in one interview with Roddenberry where he stated that the was the ONLY way he agreed to the show because of his resentment over network interference on TOS) and DS9 were first-run syndicated shows. Voyager was, if you pardon the expression, the flagship show for the UPN and so was Enterprise.

I think TNG being successful as a first-run syndicated show opened the doors to other studios to give shows like Babylon 5 and Xena a way to create other sci-fi and fantasy shows that would never found an audience on the four major US networks (CBS, ABC, NBC, and Fox) in the late 80s/early 90s just before the cable network explosion happened and probably helped that in some ways in finding out that sci-fi and fantasy shows could do well ratings wise, make money, and be thought-provoking and dramatic.
Please visit Outlaw Colony my new message board it's a fun site for fun people.
User avatar
inflatable dalek
Posts: 24000
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2004 3:15 pm
Location: Kidderminster UK

Post by inflatable dalek »

Seeing Star Trek II with an enthusiastic crown (the sort of people who cheer when Montalban reveals his chest. Guess what Shatner line got a round of applause) on the actual anniversarry was huge fun and well worth what turned out to be quite an expensive--mainly because of buying crap I don't need--couple of days.

interestingly the 70mm print was actually from the film's first UK release, complete with BBFC certificate at the start rating it "A". Which taught me something I didn't know, the original UK version of the film cut out the close ups of the worms going in and out of ears. As it was an old print (though generally in good nick) there were a few moments with brief visual and dialogue jumps and at first I thought that was what had happened, but when it did so again with the second ear sequence I realised editing had been done!

Apparently the VHS was uncut, but with a higher certificate (a 15 by then thanks to the change in how things are named). My mother is also convinced from her 34 year old memories that something else was edited as well, but if so I didn't spot it and she swears blind the Jabba the Hut scene was in Star Wars the first time she saw it so she may be a mental.

Pleasingly the Virgin Train I caught back was called the Enterprise.

Oh, and Simon Furman of all people was hanging around outside New Street Station. Luckily I already knew he was at a Birmingham comic convention tomorrow or I might have started to think I was a mental as well, especially as I had the new War Within collection on me adding to the unlikely nature of the coincidence.

It was probably lucky he was both too far ahead and turning to go a different direction to me so as I couldn't say hello, he looked lost and might have foolishly assumed my local knowledge would make it worth asking me directions. When people ask me for directions they get lost-er.

(Though as I ran into James Roberts at Manchester train station earlier in the year these are the places you need to go to hang out with famous TF comic peeps, not conventions. Bob Budiansky can often be seen at Crewe).
REVIISITATION: THE HOLE TRUTH
STARSCREAM GOES TO PIECES IN MY LOOK AT INFILTRATION #6!
PLUS: BUY THE BOOKS!
User avatar
Tetsuro
Protoform
Posts: 2520
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:26 pm
Custom Title: Poe Dameron did nothing wrong
Location: Suomi Finland Perkele

Post by Tetsuro »

I'm watching Voyager and I'm still trying to figure out what exactly it is that does wrong about all those type of episodes I liked so much about TNG. I know a lot of people hate the "space anomaly of the week" episodes but I quite like them.

Maybe it's the overreliance on technobabble without giving any sort of a "basic" metaphor to make it relatable to the audience so it just winds up becoming a deus ex machina in itself - technobabble happens, we're just expected to think whatever the hell it means works and there's no tension.
User avatar
Cyberstrike nTo
Protoform
Posts: 4186
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2002 5:48 pm
Location: In the Dead Universe known as Indianapolis
Contact:

Post by Cyberstrike nTo »

Tetsuro wrote:I'm watching Voyager and I'm still trying to figure out what exactly it is that does wrong about all those type of episodes I liked so much about TNG. I know a lot of people hate the "space anomaly of the week" episodes but I quite like them.

Maybe it's the overreliance on technobabble without giving any sort of a "basic" metaphor to make it relatable to the audience so it just winds up becoming a deus ex machina in itself - technobabble happens, we're just expected to think whatever the hell it means works and there's no tension.
For me it's the overuse of time travel stories (a running joke of the series is that time travel paradoxes give Janeway a headache) and from the end of season 3 and on the Borg go from a nightmare force that one Borg ship can destroy over half of Starfleet to a threat that one small-to-medium sized ship can beat every other week.
Also the character's arcs other than The Doctor, Torres, and Paris are not as good as they are on TNG and DS9.

As far as the technobabble goes I think it's a problem but I think long time Trekkers basically understand it, but casual and/or new fans generally probably would have a hard time or won't understand it.
Please visit Outlaw Colony my new message board it's a fun site for fun people.
User avatar
inflatable dalek
Posts: 24000
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2004 3:15 pm
Location: Kidderminster UK

Post by inflatable dalek »

Picard is just a **** in Homeward isn't he? "HOW DARE YOU SAVE THESE DYING PEOPLE WORF'S MENTIONED ONCE SEVEN YEARS AGO FOSTER BROTHER! HOW CAN I MASTERBATE OVER THEIR EXPLODING PLANET NOW??!!!!!!!!!!!!"
REVIISITATION: THE HOLE TRUTH
STARSCREAM GOES TO PIECES IN MY LOOK AT INFILTRATION #6!
PLUS: BUY THE BOOKS!
User avatar
Warcry
Posts: 13935
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 4:10 am
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada

Post by Warcry »

Tetsuro wrote:I'm watching Voyager and I'm still trying to figure out what exactly it is that does wrong about all those type of episodes I liked so much about TNG. I know a lot of people hate the "space anomaly of the week" episodes but I quite like them.
I love TNG, but in a lot of places it's really obvious that they've got a terrible script and the episode only works because the cast makes it work. Everyone always talks about how awesome Stewart and Spiner are, and Dorn and Frakes sometimes get the credit that they're due as well, and Burton, Sirtis and McFadden were fine for the roles they had even if they didn't set the world on fire. And there was also Diana Muldaur for a season (TBH I'm sad they didn't keep her around), and a great recurring cast filled with people like Whoopi Goldberg, Majel Barrett, Michelle Forbes, Colm Meaney, etc... And the writing staff seemed to have a great handle on really bringing out their characters' personalities, even when the story they were doing it in was shit.

Voyager didn't have that. The writers never seemed to know what to do with their characters, so characters like Chakotay, Kim, Tuvok, Kes or, heck, even Janeway never really got those little endearing moments to shine outside of when they were the focus of the episode. And the actors just weren't up to the level of their TNG counterparts either. So even though the show carried on the TNG formula, they did it with writing that wasn't quite up to par and a cast that didn't have the same ability to make something out of nothing.

It's like making a gourmet recipe with dollar-store ingredients. The end result will be recognizable, but still disappointing.
inflatable dalek wrote:Picard is just a **** in Homeward isn't he? "HOW DARE YOU SAVE THESE DYING PEOPLE WORF'S MENTIONED ONCE SEVEN YEARS AGO FOSTER BROTHER! HOW CAN I MASTERBATE OVER THEIR EXPLODING PLANET NOW??!!!!!!!!!!!!"
The toweringly moralistic way in which he jumps on this is what really gets me. Like, obviously the rationale for the Prime Directive is that Federation resources are limited and they have neither the ability nor the inclination to play Vorlon with the lesser races of the galaxy, so they don't want to go around meddling in outside worlds' affairs and inadvertently creating a bunch of dependent client races that they're going to have to take care of. That's selfish, but not unreasonably so, and probably a good approach to take if you're not looking for low-tech slave races whose worlds you can plunder.

But in TNG and Voyager (and even Enterprise a few times, in spite of it not existing yet) the Prime Directive is treated like a quasi-religious commandment, "THOU SHALT NOT INTERFERE!" passed down from on high rather than the practical political rule that it seemed to be in TOS (and became again rather by necessity in DS9). And Picard in particular could get really sanctimonious about it, preaching about how it was morally right to let innocent people die because to do otherwise would be playing god. But the interesting thing was that he actually seemed to consistently believe it (well, Insurrection aside), and even though it probably wasn't meant to be seen this way, it makes for an interesting character flaw.
User avatar
Tetsuro
Protoform
Posts: 2520
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:26 pm
Custom Title: Poe Dameron did nothing wrong
Location: Suomi Finland Perkele

Post by Tetsuro »

Cyberstrike nTo wrote:For me it's the overuse of time travel stories (a running joke of the series is that time travel paradoxes give Janeway a headache) and from the end of season 3 and on the Borg go from a nightmare force that one Borg ship can destroy over half of Starfleet to a threat that one small-to-medium sized ship can beat every other week.
Also the character's arcs other than The Doctor, Torres, and Paris are not as good as they are on TNG and DS9.
I don't think I can ever get over just how disappointing the Voyager finale really was. The closest thing all the various character arcs had to a closure were all in a timeline that was erased in favour of a new one. And yes, it really did bring Borg's villain decay to it's logical conclusion.

I mean, I'm still rewatching both, but while the jury is still out on which one I liked better as a whole, DS9 certainly had a stronger finale in terms of proper closure, tying up all the loose ends and showing us what happens to all these characters now. Voyager in the other hand got zilch.
User avatar
inflatable dalek
Posts: 24000
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2004 3:15 pm
Location: Kidderminster UK

Post by inflatable dalek »

So I went to the big 50th anniversarry convention at the NEC today.

Myself, I'm glad it was on my doorstep, I had a fun day with friends and met some cool actors. Nicole de Boar was especially unexpectedly cool.

Had fun on the D bridge as well.

But if I'd come further or paid more it would have felt like a let down, and if I'd bought a weekend ticket it would feel like a rip off. There was not anything like enough to do to fill a entire day unless you really threw yourself into queuing (a desire not to do stopped me getting a couple of extra autographs). Needed more stalls and displays.

Shame it wasn't a bigger thing, but for what I went in for it was fine.

Some pics:

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 2db69b1380
REVIISITATION: THE HOLE TRUTH
STARSCREAM GOES TO PIECES IN MY LOOK AT INFILTRATION #6!
PLUS: BUY THE BOOKS!
User avatar
Tetsuro
Protoform
Posts: 2520
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:26 pm
Custom Title: Poe Dameron did nothing wrong
Location: Suomi Finland Perkele

Post by Tetsuro »

Did any of you ever go to that Federation Science European Tour thing that was in the late 90's?
User avatar
Heinrad
Posts: 6281
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2001 5:00 am
Location: Riskin' it all on my Russian Roulette!

Post by Heinrad »

So, thanks to trying to figure out what's going on with some of the Kobali missions in the Delta Rising arc, I've started a rewatch of Voyager as well. It's........

I think I figured out why, as good as TNG and DS9 and as fluctuatingly good as Voyager are, I know why I've always like TOS, Enterprise despite Berman and Braga feeling the need to tie it in more to the TNG era than it should have been, and even the reboot movies better.

A sense of wonder.

Put it down to differences in writing styles, directing styles, actor choices, or even just differences in the way shows were done between the 60s and the 80s/90s. But here's Voyager, lost in a completely new area of space and it just seems to be same old same old. The only difference seems to be the aliens.

I'm in season 1 so far, and it's good, but the sense of desperation feels more forced or 'We need a convenient plot point to remind people they want to get home' than natural.
As a professional tanuki (I'm a Japanese mythological animal, and a good luck charm), I have an alarm clock built into me somewhere. I also look like a stuffed animal. And you thought your life was tough......

3DS Friend Code: 1092-1274-7642
User avatar
inflatable dalek
Posts: 24000
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2004 3:15 pm
Location: Kidderminster UK

Post by inflatable dalek »

Tetsuro wrote:Did any of you ever go to that Federation Science European Tour thing that was in the late 90's?
I'd not even heard of it till you mentioned it.

Finally got my scanner working, so here I am on the D bridge in all its glory (complete with oddly dirty carpet. Mind, thanks to HD we know that's not un-screen accurate).

https://twitter.com/InflatableDalek/sta ... 9842121728

So, finished TNG. All Good Things is still a fantastic episode, better than all four films that followed it despite the core idea clearly not making any sense (if it's going back in time the anomaly should exist when the Paster first gets there, and then vanish after it is created. Not the other way round! Not to mention everyone acts as if it was created by three Enterprises when it wasn't...). Funny, thoughtful, actually has one great action scene despite not being an action story (the three nacelled Enterprise must have been designed by Sisko, it's as mean a mother ****er as the Defiant) and generally does the sort of thoughtful playful SF that the series always claimed to be at its best (as opposed to say, The Masterpiece Society which did it at its worse).

And at its best TNG is easily the equal of the original, it's just a pity the films (which are always going to be the default experience for more casual fans) are mostly so awful as to piss over its legacy. I'm convinced they're the main reason it's seen as a bit of a failed take on Trek now.

It really is depressing how First Contact is the only one of the films to actually be any good, and even then it's got a fairly crap script and is mainly saved by the direction and performances. Insurrection keeps getting called a "TV Episode" but that's insulting to most of the series.

And Nemesis is actually worse than I remembered. Especially Tom Hardy who I'd had down as the best thing in it, but is in fact a camp catwalk model who can't overcome the terrible backstory he has.

And amidst all the film's other much discussed flaws: For this one they couldn't use the now destroyed Voayger sets for various bits of the E so things like sickbay and quarters had to be newly built. And every single new Enterprise set in this film is terrible, they're all big dull grey rooms that don't remotely match the look of the pre-existing parts of the ship.

And the lighting! I know Generations gets flak for "All the light bulbs blowing at the same time", but for me there's a real artistry to how that was shot. Nemesis repeatedly looks like the dimmer switch is broken, adding to the miserable feeling of the whole thing.

And Data flat out saying B4 and Shinzon are irredeemable and incapable of improving themselves are the least Trek things ever (and clearly only there so as him taking over his brother's body as implied by the end can be seen as morally OK. Basically the message of this film is "Your autistic brother is worth less than you are").

Plus it's a silly thing to say about Shinzon who has gone from child slave to leader of a SPACE Empire.

Into early DS9 now. As a sign of how TV effects were catching up on mid-budget films, the Wolf 359 battle is nearly the equal of the First Contact opening. Mind, they clearly spent all the money for the year on it as every episode following feels very low key and there's been about three scenes not set on the station.

It's odd really, because I don't think season 1 is anyone's default "Let's watch some DS9!" of choice, so I've not seen most of this in years and in many ways it feels as odd compared to the rest of the series as TNG's early days famously do to that show. Dax is turned into a completely different character at some point down the line for example, the aloof smart scientist isn't remotely the same person as the party loving warrior woman who marries Worf.

And I don't like the dull middle manager guy playing Sisko, when does the cool bald psychopath replace him?

More seriously, it is odd they'd cast Avery Brooks and then force him to play it in an un-Avery Brooks a way as possible for the first three years. Even his voice sounds different! He often sounds borderline Jamaican in these early shows. It means he's comfortably the least interesting character here.

More cheerfully, early Kira always used to annoy me, but I guess after 177 episodes of Troi and Crusher any woman with personality is a relief as she's actually kind of awesome from the off this time around.
REVIISITATION: THE HOLE TRUTH
STARSCREAM GOES TO PIECES IN MY LOOK AT INFILTRATION #6!
PLUS: BUY THE BOOKS!
User avatar
Tetsuro
Protoform
Posts: 2520
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:26 pm
Custom Title: Poe Dameron did nothing wrong
Location: Suomi Finland Perkele

Post by Tetsuro »

inflatable dalek wrote: More cheerfully, early Kira always used to annoy me, but I guess after 177 episodes of Troi and Crusher any woman with personality is a relief as she's actually kind of awesome from the off this time around.
It helps that early Kira isn't weighed down by a hamfisted romance with Odo yet, either.

As for the Federation Science tour, apparently it took place between 1999 and 2003, taking places in various locales, including several in the UK.

The little I do remember about it myself was that they had a variety of interactive attractions, ones I remember in particular were what was basically an early version of EyeToy where you flailed around in front of a camera touching virtual stuff (I can't actually remember what the content was), some centrifuge thing filled with blue liquid you could spin with a control panel, and this big (and not very good) recreation of the bridge with science stations you could do stuff on - the only one I tried had you go through spectrograms from various planets to see which ones had a breathable atmosphere - so the whole thing was a kind of combination of Star Trek with some real life science. They also had props and costumes on display like a Borg Alcove and the formal suits from Insurrection.

I actually found a video from what I assume was one of the German locations:



I guess it's just a big deal to me since it's the only event of it's kind I've ever actually had a chance to participate in.

They also had a gift store where I convinced my mom to buy me a Playmates Enterprise-D.
User avatar
Denyer
Posts: 33033
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2000 4:00 am
Location: Perfidious Albion
Contact:

Post by Denyer »

User avatar
Sades
Posts: 9483
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2001 5:00 am
Location: I APOLOGISE IN ADVANCE

Post by Sades »

This is why the aliens haven't contacted us yet.
This is my signature. My wasted space. My little corner. You can't have it. It's mine. I can write whatever I want. And I have!
User avatar
Heinrad
Posts: 6281
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2001 5:00 am
Location: Riskin' it all on my Russian Roulette!

Post by Heinrad »

I figured it was because of the Kardashians.
As a professional tanuki (I'm a Japanese mythological animal, and a good luck charm), I have an alarm clock built into me somewhere. I also look like a stuffed animal. And you thought your life was tough......

3DS Friend Code: 1092-1274-7642
User avatar
Sades
Posts: 9483
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2001 5:00 am
Location: I APOLOGISE IN ADVANCE

Post by Sades »

IMO Sadly symptom, not cause. Insert Cardassian/Kardashian joke here!
This is my signature. My wasted space. My little corner. You can't have it. It's mine. I can write whatever I want. And I have!
User avatar
inflatable dalek
Posts: 24000
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2004 3:15 pm
Location: Kidderminster UK

Post by inflatable dalek »

Though it's reputation isn't anything like that of early TNG 9or VOY and ENT) a lot of season 1 of DS9 really isn't very good. Everything feels so low stakes, you barely leave the station, the threats are often low key for an outpost the pilot made out to be a major and important place thanks to the wormhole (will this Bajoran farmer have to leave his nice house?!) and the guest cast tend to be generic American TV actors with few stand outs.

They clearly just blew too much money on the pilot and are having to recoup costs, but the almost contemporary first season of B5 is low budget and similarly contained to the one location and has far more of a sense of scope and importance to it just through the writing.

I mean, despite being a comedy, The Nagus is the first episode after the pilot to have any weight to it because it's about galactic politics, has a decent sized guest cast and a proper character actor in a major role in Wallace Shaw.

Thankfully the last two episodes really turn it round. Duet especially shows how much of the rest of the season is lacking by being just two people talking in a room and thus as cheap as can be, but it absolutely bursts with energy and passion. And the season finale has a similar energy and also some money.

Season 2 starts off much better, even if the siege part of The Siege is rather drawn out (and can Odo make working electronics or does his communicator just sort of float about inside of him when he turns into something else?).

It's also kind of fun the second year is bookended by Skeletor actors.
REVIISITATION: THE HOLE TRUTH
STARSCREAM GOES TO PIECES IN MY LOOK AT INFILTRATION #6!
PLUS: BUY THE BOOKS!
User avatar
Tetsuro
Protoform
Posts: 2520
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:26 pm
Custom Title: Poe Dameron did nothing wrong
Location: Suomi Finland Perkele

Post by Tetsuro »

Just watching Dark Frontier. There's the scene where Annika is playing with a Borg Cube and her dad shows up and tells her to put it down, saying "it's not a toy"...

...except that it is a toy - specifically, the Playmates toy, used as a prop in the episode.
User avatar
inflatable dalek
Posts: 24000
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2004 3:15 pm
Location: Kidderminster UK

Post by inflatable dalek »

Michelle Yeoh from offa Tomorrow Never Dies (and lots of other films if you're not a philistine) first confirmed casting for Discovery.

It is no coincidence this is the first news about the show that remotely interests me. Hopefully she'll be the captain.
REVIISITATION: THE HOLE TRUTH
STARSCREAM GOES TO PIECES IN MY LOOK AT INFILTRATION #6!
PLUS: BUY THE BOOKS!
User avatar
Heinrad
Posts: 6281
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2001 5:00 am
Location: Riskin' it all on my Russian Roulette!

Post by Heinrad »

Cool. I might have to start paying CBS to watch this.
As a professional tanuki (I'm a Japanese mythological animal, and a good luck charm), I have an alarm clock built into me somewhere. I also look like a stuffed animal. And you thought your life was tough......

3DS Friend Code: 1092-1274-7642
Post Reply