GTA IV

[Ostentatious]

O.K. The Nintendo does have the whole Good vs. Evil thing, which does attempt to create a sense of justice (or superior survival skills in an apocalyptic environment) in their games' players.
I see Ghostal's point of the way people play the game sometimes. I agree that it's low at times, and GTA SHOULD be a game for adults that can take that kind of entertainment. It's similar to enjoying a gory horror movie at the theater. Please, no one under 17 (or 18?).

Edit: Were there any real zombies in Resident Evil 4? It's been awhile since I've seen it played.

[wolfbolt86]

Question: Do the kids under 17 go to the store and buy it, or do the parents buy the thing for them. I know most stores around here, have a policy of not selling M games to minoirs, but i think the stores don't follow it.

[Ostentatious]

Yeah, most of the store really don't support their policies like they should in my area as well. Plus, parents, or from what I've seen first-hand the case of grandparents, do end up buying their underage kid M-rated games. Luckily, the sales clerk convinced the little old lady buying Vice City for her 12 year-old grandson wasn't a good idea.

[Sir Auros]

Wow, Ghostal...

Yes, the people in the cheap seats are playing it for the violence, but there's a TON of social commentary in the game, and I'd say that's a redeeming factor. There's also the bit about it being a fun, well-designed game. Did you like Kill Bill and Pulp Fiction? This is pretty close to a videogame equivalent of those movies. Movies that could be criticized by more conservative members of our society for being gratuitously violent and without redeeming values, but there is cleverness and style if you're looking for something other than a kneejerk reaction.

No, children shouldn't be playing this game and it is a sad state when their moron parents are buying them the game (many knowing full-well what's in it), but you just sound like an ignorant old fogey when you say the game's just violence for the sake of violence. It is what you make of it, and I enjoy it as a whole city of parody.

Also, the Wii isn't selling because Nintendo's anti-violence or anything of the sort. It's selling because A - it's fashionable and B - it's targeting an untapped demographic with casual games. Casual games =/= non-violent per se, but their simplicity and short nature doesn't lend itself well to violent themes.

[martyboy70]

And the reason GTA IV isnt on the Wii isnt some ethical stand by Nintendo trying to stay on the highground which deserves to be admired in this ever commercialised world.
Its for one reason and one reason only-the Wii is woefully underspecced in comparison to the PS3 and X360 and isnt capable of running the game.

[Vin Ghostal]

Yes, the people in the cheap seats are playing it for the violence, but there's a TON of social commentary in the game, and I'd say that's a redeeming factor. There's also the bit about it being a fun, well-designed game. Did you like Kill Bill and Pulp Fiction? This is pretty close to a videogame equivalent of those movies. Movies that could be criticized by more conservative members of our society for being gratuitously violent and without redeeming values, but there is cleverness and style if you're looking for something other than a kneejerk reaction.

There is a TREMENDOUS difference between watching a movie, a passive experience, and playing a video game, a wholly interactive experience. Watching someone get stabbed in a movie is NOT equivalent to pressing the button repeatedly to stab an animated character. Both occur in a fictitious world, but only one is participatory. The comparison does NOT work, because the latter is substantially more unhealthy than the former. I'm no censor, nor am I a conservative. As a film student AND a lifelong video game player, I'd say I know a bit about both. I could watch the most intense parts of 300 a hundred times without flinching, but I don't think I could bring myself to pick up a controller and press a button to stab a fallen character to death in GTA. That's the bottom line.

And the reason GTA IV isnt on the Wii isnt some ethical stand by Nintendo trying to stay on the highground which deserves to be admired in this ever commercialised world.
Its for one reason and one reason only-the Wii is woefully underspecced in comparison to the PS3 and X360 and isnt capable of running the game.

When did I say that Nintendo was standing on a moral highground? I never said that. Please learn to read more closely and carefully. I'll quote Miyamoto again, because it speaks volumes about Nintendo as a company:

"The obvious objective of video games is to entertain people by surprising them with new experiences. Violence is one means of doing that, [though] I look to make people laugh or smile." -Shigero Miyamoto, Senior Managing Director of Nintendo Co. and creator of Mario, Donkey Kong, and Zelda

[Vin Ghostal]

And the reason GTA IV isnt on the Wii isnt some ethical stand by Nintendo trying to stay on the highground which deserves to be admired in this ever commercialised world.
Its for one reason and one reason only-the Wii is woefully underspecced in comparison to the PS3 and X360 and isnt capable of running the game.

When did I say that Nintendo was standing on a moral highground? I never said that. Please learn to read more closely and carefully. I'll quote Miyamoto again, because it speaks volumes about Nintendo as a company:

"The obvious objective of video games is to entertain people by surprising them with new experiences. Violence is one means of doing that, [though] I look to make people laugh or smile." -Shigero Miyamoto, Senior Managing Director of Nintendo Co. and creator of Mario, Donkey Kong, and Zelda

[Sir Auros]

Both occur in a fictitious world, but only one is participatory. The comparison does NOT work, because the latter is substantially more unhealthy than the former. I'm no censor, nor am I a conservative.

You are a judgemental ass who doesn't know what he's talking about. I could mow over dozens of pedestrians in or snipe a construction worker in the face in GTA, but I don't even get in fist fights in real life and I'm disgusted by real gore. Unhealthy my ass.

All entertainment media requires some level of participation - books require your mind to fill in details, movies draw you into their worlds, games do a little of both and have you guide the experience. You're coming across as a typical "think of the children" luddite here.

[Denyer]

I could watch the most intense parts of 300 a hundred times without flinching, but I don't think I could bring myself to pick up a controller and press a button to stab a fallen character to death in GTA.

Other way around, personally... I'd rather not have a performed story try to manipulate my reactions, engage with it and get me to treat it as the portrayal of something real, whereas I'm aware a game is a simulation, load of pixels etc. and it doesn't become immersive. Firing real weapons or being in a stand-up fight is considerably different. Games, novel controllers or not, don't have the tactile element to be realistic... and if they did, people probably wouldn't play them. Audio's another area where games tend to avoid realism.

I think being able to sit back and enjoy scenes of violence (or watch them without it provoking a response) is a bit worrying, TBH. Unless a film's so badly acted it can't be taken seriously. A game at least has objectives.

[Sir Auros]

Yeah, a similar thought I had is that the NPCs in GTA games are so ridiculously underdeveloped that killing them is more analogous to swatting flies than anything approaching the murder of a human. That, and it's a game where you're very aware that it's a game because of the nature of the satire.

I really think the violence is the least damaging element of the game for children. I'd be more concerned with the language, glorification of the criminal subculture, and the sexual situations that are either misogynistic or desperately pathetic/pathetically desperate.

[martyboy70]

I didnt say you said it.
Please learn to read more closely and carefully.
Ahem

I never really got the whole GTA thing, and i have just started to play M games.

Ostentatious, it think Vin Ghostal was talking more about the way players can go on a massive killing spring for no reason. All the M games that Nintendo has are ones where killing is done for survial not for no reason. Besides are most Nintendo games based on the good vs evil thing?

[Vin Ghostal]

You are a judgemental ass who doesn't know what he's talking about. I could mow over dozens of pedestrians in or snipe a construction worker in the face in GTA, but I don't even get in fist fights in real life and I'm disgusted by real gore. Unhealthy my ass.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=GLeVlBca5lg

[Sir Auros]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=GLeVlBca5lg

No mention of GTA, and no mention of videogames other than the kid's punishment is that he isn't allowed to play them...for a WHOLE weekend. Sounds like shitty parenting is the culprit here.

Do you just suck up whatever bogeymen the mainstream media creates for you?

Not to mention that despite trying to turn this into something about the children NOW, your previous comments were blanket statements saying it's unhealthy for adults as well as impressionable children. They were pretty damn insultingly judgemental as well. The game may not be your cup of tea, but claiming it has no redeeming value and it's wicked betrays your ignorance and lowers my respect for you. Seriously, not even in a Halfshell kind of way.

[Vin Ghostal]

But...I've lost all respect for you long ago, so...

And the video was posted in jest, by the way, an attempt to lighten the mood. A bit defensive about your geeky video game, aren't you?

[secretcode]

Is anyone else amused that this thread is seemingly following the path of the last one?

[Sir Auros]

And the video was posted in jest, by the way, an attempt to lighten the mood. A bit defensive about your geeky video game, aren't you?

More putdowns, nice.

I take games and the politics surrounding games seriously. I don't like to see people feeding the beast that's saying, "Censor and restrict this new media, but leave the others alone." I think there's room for all kinds of games, and while I don't think children should be playing some games, I don't see why games as a medium should suffer restrictions that other forms of media don't.

[Ackula]

I for one hate the GTA series as a whole, not for the violence inherit in it though. However, I don't feel that it is harmful or needs to be outlawed in any way. The violence, while over the top, is so unrealistic it borders on comedy. I'm of the personal mindset that they should be able to make games about whatever they want. The art form is not just for kids anymore. While I most likely wouldn't play it, I see nothing wrong with a pornographic snuff RPG on the PS3 if thats what people want to make/play. Who am I to tell someone else what they can or cannot do? It certainly doesn't seem any more harmful than horror movies, death metal, rap music, gangster culture, and the good old Devil who seems to get the blame when none of the above do.

There should probably be a better system in place for keeping "M" rated games out of the hands of minors, but the same can be said of "R" rated movies..smokes, beer, porn, and many more items. I think it all comes down to one thing, parenting. No matter what laws or regulations are put in place for this media, kids will get a hold of it if their parents are not worth a **** at keeping a watch on them and keeping them on the right path. If you suck as a parent and your kid gets a copy of GTA and becomes obsessed with it, that is a reflection of you as a shitty parent, not a reflection of GTA as a dangerous game.

Yes it probably is a sad commentary on our culture to see one of the most popular games be this sort of game, but on the flip side I do believe there is still good out there as the Wii does seem to sell quite fine. Each has their target audience and each seems to excel at hitting the marks with their target audience.

I for one, no matter how much I dislike the game based on its gameplay merits, will not knock it for the violence. From a marketing perspective it seems to do wonders for the sort of people that its aimed at, and for that I say kudos to Rockstar.

[Sixswitch]

The 'sorts of people it's aimed at' aren't necessarily kids or retarded wannabe gangsters. That's important to remember. I'm not saying that you claimed this mind - just bringing it up.

I have at least three friends who own it - one has a degree in Computer Science, and one has a degree in Maths. These people are not stupid. As Auros rightly points out, the game has much more to offer than gratuitous violence.

It really gets on my nerves when people claim the Wii is somehow morally superior to the XBox360 and the PS3. Does anyone think for a second that if Nintendo could have gotten GTA on their system that they wouldn't have gone for it? This is just naive.

Having said all this, I fully agree that there's no way in hell that kids should be playing this game. But neither should kids be watching 18 rated films like (to pluck two gratuitously violent films out of a hat) Saw or Hostel. This comes down to adults behaving sensibly. Having said that - it was something I'd never considered until my younger cousin got into gaming, so I do think there's a need for education on the subject.

Everyone knows you shouldn't let kids watch 18 rated films. I'm not sure that we're there yet with that widespread awareness for computer games (despite the age labels on games in the UK being identical to those on DVD boxes).

-Ss

PS: Got the game yeterday - it rocks!

[StoneCold Skywarp]

Nintendo Wii - Scarface anybody? - Manhunt 2 anybody? Even Resident Evil 4 is pretty grim at times. Anyone that believes that Nintendo try to take the moral high-ground with their videogame releases wants their heads examined!

The simple matter of fact is that GTA is the pinnacle of "violent" videogames and whilst it may not pander to Nintendo's ideal audience the real, very simple reason, it won't be appearing on a Nintendo console is because the Wii isn't capable of running the game.

Even the most stunning of Wii games (and I'm thinking Mario Galaxy here) doesn't compare to the stuff that 360 or PS3 are capable of and I include GTA in that bracket. Not because it's graphically luscious, no, but because of all the little touches in the game that take a mammoth amount of power to process.

[Ackula]

The 'sorts of people it's aimed at' aren't necessarily kids or retarded wannabe gangsters. That's important to remember. I'm not saying that you claimed this mind - just bringing it up.

Nah, you are right. I never claimed that. The target audience to me are adults 18-30 years old who like to have a bit of stress relief, and/or enjoy adult themed media as a whole. Not it any way trying to put down anyone who likes the game. I don't like it, but again, it has nothing to do with the content. And who knows I might like the new one if I were to play it and find that Rockstar completely redid the game engine and changed the control scheme, ect.

I never said Nintendo doesn't have mature games either, sure they do. I'm not rooting for anyone in this here thread, just trying to say my point of view and remain neutral more or less. Nintendo does seem to have more family friendly game choices however, and thus it is the system I chose to purchase for my eight year old son.