Doctor Who: Time Crash, Voyage of the Damned and Season 4 Discussion

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inflatable dalek
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Post by inflatable dalek »

Heinrad wrote:Somebody who laid the foundations of his planet's society is not necessarially going to be sweetness and light.
Which makes him the perfect guy to lead the Time Lords in a big nasty war now, especially as the only present members of their race with any fighting experience would be mad like the Master or to moral for the nasty stuff like the Doctor.
What I'm wondering his how, exactly, Captain Jack wound up in the Star Wars cantina, anyway? I should probably finish watching Children of Earth at some point.......
I haven't had chance to watch it yet but knowing the ending:
SPOILER! (select to read)
Jack's lover and Grandson die. He's probably keen to be alone and drunk as far away from everyone as he can get. The Doctor pushing him in the direction of Alonzo is likely going to at least give him a brief bit of solace, maybe even the start of something more long term. Either way it should stop him reverting to being the miserable bastard he was in early Torchwood.
The only one that jarred, really, was Rose's. Seeing her mother in hot pants was bad enough, but don't you think Rose would've remembered when the Tenth Doctor picked his outfit and started wearing that trenchcoat?
I've seen that complaint a few times and don't get it, she sees a guy in a big coat in the distance and in shadow, on New Years Eve when she's likely had a few as well. Why would she recognise him [at least] six months later? Compared to the fifth Doctor learning in advance he'll be fighting the Master when he looks liek Tennant that's nothing.

A few moe thoughts what I has had thinking about it whilst being unable to sleep:

What I really liked about this story is that it took things I didn't think had worked very well in the show before and turned them into virtues.

Last time he was in the show the Master had a shit plan we were supposed to take terribly seriously when he was acting like a loon. Here he's got a shit plan ect but it turns out we're not supposed to be taking him seriously at all, he's the rather pathetic side show and Rassilon effectively switches off that plot with a click of his fingers. That should have completely undermined the whole story and had me shouting "So what was the point of the last hour and a half then?!?!" at the screen but instead by setting up the Master's pathetic-nes so completely and making him realise what a pawn he's been it makes his own self sacrifice (and that's how I read it as, it's really the only way it can work thematically) plausible and even a hands in the air moment as he gets his own back on the people who ruined his life.

Also, and more obviously, the episode basically reaches the same end point as Eccleston's last show, but with Time Lords in place of Daleks as the evil force tm from the Time War returning to wreak havoc. In Parting of the Ways there's great effort to try and make 9 look all big and heroic and as if he's going out in a blaze of glory, but ultimately all he does is fiddle with wires whilst all of humanity gets killed and then cowers in a corner when Rose saves the day. Despite his self sacrifice for her the attempt to make it seem bigger than it really is undercuts the whole thing.

Here, the Doctor jumps out that spaceship fully intending to make that ultimate heroic sacrifice, and instead gets thwated at every turn and winds up pretty much redundant, his main contribution at the end having been done an hour earlier in his conversation with the Master where he plants the idea of what his life could have been in his mind. In the end the tragedy is that he's determined that if he's going he's going out on his terms but doesn't get a chance. And then when he thinks "Well, at least I'm alive still" something as simple as a locked door finishes him in as drab and ordinary a way as possible, even if it does save Wilf. All that anger and rage he gets from dying having basically failed to do much is so much more satisfying and emotional that the faux Eccles heroics. And very different from anything we've had before at the point of regeneration, where normally he's stoically brave. Closest would be his panic in The War Games, but even that doesn't reach the same level of desperation that starts when he hears those knocks.

That's part of what annoyed me about the Smith scene, after a regeneration that did new and interesting things for the show we get a intro scene that's far to much like the last one. Except here he's sprouting on with no one to talk to for no readily apparent reason.

Even with that flaw though, and despite me mostly enjoying the other specials as knockaround fun, I can't remember the last time Who got me thinking this much in a positive way, beyond "How do we explain this plot hole then" and "Was that an injoke" stuff. Midnight possibly (which I think is a bit of a underrated one, I still love the ambiguity at the end over how much of the humans actions were down to alien interference and how much is just normal people breaking down in a crisis).
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Post by Cliffjumper »

I loved Midnight too. The message was a bit simple, but it just got on and told a little story... I mean, a lot of the time this is what the show's been. I know it's television in general that's moved that way, but the need to make so many episodes BIG or part of a larger arc has largely detracted from Who to date (though I didn;'t see more than about 2 minutes of last night's - Twatboy talking to people who looked like him over the telly, the Doctor tied up, that **** Tate; I was having a nice evening recovering from bloody Animated, and wasn't going to chance it). The more satisfying stuff has mainly been (relatively) self-contained and often smallish in scale - Dalek, Gridlock (ignoring the Face of Boe stuff, which had very little to do with what made it so great), Human Nature...

Re: Rassilon, I always thought it was largely implied he was a bit of a bastard, albeit in a "Gallifrey needed a bastard then" sort of way (like, I dunno, Churchill in World War 2 - he was as hard as nails and not particularly pleasant, but he got the job done and made the difficult decisions). Must've picked that up from books or something, though the Second Doctor pretty much said so in "The Three and a Bit Doctors and Neebrox off Blake's 7".
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Post by Jetfire »

On the reaction of Doctor 11 to his few features, thinking back it isn't just him and Tennant who do it. Surely both scenes are referencing Tom Baker's comic reaction to his regeneration with Harry. Plus I'm sure Troughton and Pertwee did similar before. Feeling the face making comments about the features etc.
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Post by inflatable dalek »

Cliffjumper wrote:I loved Midnight too. The message was a bit simple, but it just got on and told a little story...
Yep, I've said time and time again that's been RTD's real strength. Nothing wrong with big over arcing stuff (and generally the way the arcs on Who have been set up is fine, most self contained to the one season so you know they'll be a pay off- unlike say Furman's IDW stuff- with the vast bulk of the episodes enjoyable on their own with the arc only needing the insertion of a word or phrase. It's generally the pay off itself that's the problem) but he's not the man for it. The reason I think this worked so well, is that it ultimately boils down to two old men talking about their lives.

That said though, despite being a very short arc the "Four knocks" thing worked surprisingly well despite the unsubtle set up. It's nicely taken the piss out of in Waters of Mars before the explanation is actually surprising, simple and well thought out.
(though I didn;'t see more than about 2 minutes of last night's - Twatboy talking to people who looked like him over the telly, the Doctor tied up, that **** Tate; I was having a nice evening recovering from bloody Animated, and wasn't going to chance it).
If it makes you feel better for when/if you do watch it Tate's only in about ten minuets. I do realise that there's a lot of assumed intent in what the episode did for me, that the Master's plan was intentionally rubbish rather than accidentally and so on. But it still works for me. I'm probably (to coin a phrase) making it all a bit Halley Berry though.
(ignoring the Face of Boe stuff, which had very little to do with what made it so great)
What's interesting about the Boe stuff is that it's a completely unplanned arc (hell, they hadn't even planned on the Jack revelation when they filmed Gridlock) that works because it's small and low key and was basically done for fun rather than any big grand plans.
Re: Rassilon, I always thought it was largely implied he was a bit of a bastard, albeit in a "Gallifrey needed a bastard then" sort of way (like, I dunno, Churchill in World War 2 - he was as hard as nails and not particularly pleasant, but he got the job done and made the difficult decisions). Must've picked that up from books or something, though the Second Doctor pretty much said so in "The Three and a Bit Doctors and Neebrox off Blake's 7".
I think his only substantial appearances in the "flesh" have been in the audios, but it's fairly implicit from the Cartmel Masterplan stuff as well.
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Post by Summerhayes »

End of time was fun nonsense, but . . . umm . . . it was super, super gay
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Post by DrEvil »

Will there be less running?
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Post by inflatable dalek »

Summerhayes wrote: . it was super, super gay
Yeah, that Adipose was gagging for some cock wasn't he?

It's strange really, a bar full of recurring monsters from the shows return should have been terribly self indulgent but it actually worked because they're all species who've recently been on or around the planet so the waifs and strays heading for the same convenient bar at the end of the day actually feels very right, they're the guards and henchmen who take their wage home and like a beer at the end of the week.

Even the Adipose we see being a child makes sense if you accept their first episode at all as they came across as bloody awful parents in it, just the sort to give their kid a liquid fat beer and send them dancing across the bar.
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Post by Heinrad »

So if it's obvious that Rassilon was ressurected/hauled out of stasis/given his wake-up call because the situation was so dire, why are people railing against the fact that he's not the kindly, benefiicient leader-type of person? Are the people at OG really that daft?

Although given the fact that DWM pokes fun at them from time to time, maybe they are.......

Actually, Rassilon's ressurection may have been a result of the Master doing the smart thing and legging it. I got the impression that the Master recognized Rassilon due more to robes and accessories of office instead of recognizing him as Rassilon.

As for how the war is locked, I think it's stopped at a moment. The Time Lords know what's coming, and thanks to the timelock, it will never come, but because they're Time Lords, they aren't frozen in time like everybody else inside the bubble. Which, for a society that's gone almost completely to a war footing and seems to like it, has got to be bloody depressing. "WOOHOO!!!! We're not gonna die! Or do anything else ever again, because we're stuck in an ever-present now....... bugger."
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Post by Cliffjumper »

inflatable dalek wrote:Yep, I've said time and time again that's been RTD's real strength.
To be fair, though, Midnight does also prove what a drag factor Tate (and/or the character of Donna, though they're close to one and the same) is on episodes. I'm pretty sure I'd have found the last season considerably more tolerable with, say, Martha - "Turn Left", for example, is largely a quality script ruined by a lead who's badly acted and totally unsympathetic.
I think his only substantial appearances in the "flesh" have been in the audios, but it's fairly implicit from the Cartmel Masterplan stuff as well.
Yeh, a guy who builds quite so many weapons and devices capable of destroying suns can't exactly be a completely nice chap...
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Post by The Doctor »

The 10th doctor fought for every second of life he had left. At first I scoffed at his unwillingness to accept death (such as my avatar sake). But I had to realize that in reality people deal with their mortality in different ways, and the Doctor's various incarnations may not accepted regeneration in quite the same way. In the end as he has always done he accepted his responsibility while feeling cheated. I'm sure the Second and Third Docs felt a bit the same way.


The Doctor is not dead of course so I'm willing to give the 11th Doc a chance.

This is the 3rd regeneration I've seen in real time.

7th to 8th
9th to 10th
10th to 11th
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Post by inflatable dalek »

Cliffjumper wrote: I'm pretty sure I'd have found the last season considerably more tolerable with, say, Martha
Lets not go crazy.


Yeh, a guy who builds quite so many weapons and devices capable of destroying suns can't exactly be a completely nice chap...
Nah, he's like poor old innocent and cruelly slain Demolisher. All he wanted was some sleep in his tomb but people kept putting their finger in his ring.
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Post by Halfshell »

So why were people having dreams of The Master prior to him taking them over then? Eh?
Summerhayes wrote:End of time was fun nonsense, but . . . umm . . . it was super, super gay
Excuse me? I have trouble keeping up with what exactly the stupid-definition-of-the-week for gay is, so could you be so kind as to elaborate?
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Post by Cliffjumper »

'Twas probably the bumsex between Tennant and Cribbins wot done it. "Squeal like a pig for me, gramps!"

























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Post by Halfshell »

I do feel the burning need to reiterate the fact that, as wonderful as the last half hour or so was, it really didn't excuse the utter utter shite that the previous episode and a half comprised of.

After the godawful chav gurning Master (Simm wasn't better this time out, he was just blonder... admittedly he was ace when confronted with the Timelords, but still), portentious Bad Dreams and Ood senselessness, inexplicable Timelady apparitions (acknowledgement is not explanation... BSG got away with that sort of thing due to philosophical and thematics and ambiguity, whereas RTD has been running a CBBC show), six billion gurning chav Masters (he's turned them into slave robots, now himself... what next then?), ludicrous ludicrous technobabble, Tate cameos, Timothy Dalton deciding he's in panto and his magic glove that I was forced to sit through, I was owed half an hour of niceness.

Planet of the Dead and Waters of Mars were shit too. Four and a half hours of programming in a year and only the last half an hour ended up watchable.

Is RTD leaving Torchwood too? Or am I going to have to endure another 26 hours of shit before being gifted 5 decent ones?
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Post by Jetfire »

Halfshell wrote:I do feel the burning need to reiterate the fact that, as wonderful as the last half hour or so was, it really didn't excuse the utter utter shite that the previous episode and a half comprised of.
I thought the first half of part 2 was good, in part because we saw a much more measured Master and Sims showing what he could do with a good take on it. The Doctors depression and helplessness was good too.
After the godawful chav gurning Master (Simm wasn't better this time out, he was just blonder... admittedly he was ace when confronted with the Timelords, but still), portentious Bad Dreams and Ood senselessness, inexplicable Timelady apparitions (acknowledgement is not explanation... BSG got away with that sort of thing due to philosophical and thematics and ambiguity, whereas RTD has been running a CBBC show), six billion gurning chav Masters (he's turned them into slave robots, now himself... what next then?), ludicrous ludicrous technobabble, Tate cameos, Timothy Dalton deciding he's in panto and his magic glove that I was forced to sit through, I was owed half an hour of niceness.
Dalton spitting while talking is/was the TV highlight of the year.
Planet of the Dead and Waters of Mars were shit too. Four and a half hours of programming in a year and only the last half an hour ended up watchable.

Is RTD leaving Torchwood too? Or am I going to have to endure another 26 hours of shit before being gifted 5 decent ones?
Waters of Mars was quite good I thought. Not particularly scary as advertised, but showing that once again Who is often at it's best in a tight environment. Still no more RTD now. Here's hoping for the future, in my opinion Steven Moffat's track record on Who and running a TV series has been superb so far as he appears not to have the annoying obsession with pop culture and the Doctor talking about himself loudly as RTD. He's great at writing stories with tension as well as stories which don't actually have a magical end to them.
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Post by Halfshell »

Jetfire wrote:Waters of Mars was quite good I thought.
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Post by Rurudyne »

Heinrad wrote:Which, for a society that's gone almost completely to a war footing and seems to like it, has got to be bloody depressing. "WOOHOO!!!! We're not gonna die! Or do anything else ever again, because we're stuck in an ever-present now....... bugger."
Sounds like a vacation in Cleveland.
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Post by inflatable dalek »

Halfshell wrote:So why were people having dreams of The Master prior to him taking them over then? Eh?
Echos of the subsequent enhancing of the drumming reverberating through time?

The lack of the usual spelling out of everything did make a nice change but also left a few things unexplained (resolutely not saying who the woman was is a good thing, but also means we never found out how she was sending messages out of the bubble).

I noticed watching it again Dalton (who always does panto when he plays villains, it's what he excels at) calls the two non voting Time Lords "Weeping Angels", significant or just him being sarky?
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Post by Summerhayes »

I'm pretty sure the problem I had with the Master wasn't Simm himself, just the fact that he'd gone from super-genius arch-nemesis to chicken-scoffing, lightning-shooting crazy person. It was a bit better later on, when he was being a bit smarter.
Halfshell wrote:Excuse me? I have trouble keeping up with what exactly the stupid-definition-of-the-week for gay is, so could you be so kind as to elaborate?
Oh, no, I genuinely mean homosexual. The scenes between the Doctor and the Master or Bernard Cribbins were like Top Gun all over again. And then he goes and sets Captain Jack up with some bloke. I know it was Davies' last one, but come on . . .
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Post by optimusskids »

On a slight tangent how long does ammunition last before it detereoates to the blowing off your hand stage. Just read a book where the "war souvenir weaponry " played a part and it made me wonder

I don't suppose too much souveniring has been happening in recent conflicts
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