Doctor Who: Time Crash, Voyage of the Damned and Season 4 Discussion

[CounterPunch]

The Forced Capitals in Bad Dreams as if nobody knows the word nightmare

I've never really watched Doctor Who before, but am watching it now on BBC, is there some relevance to "bad dreams", the phrase specifically, because that opening line (was that Timothy Dalton who narrated the opening line?) in which he says "on the last day of earth, everyone has bad dreams" or something was one of the most cringeworthy things I've heard in a while.

[Halfshell]

I've never really watched Doctor Who before, but am watching it now on BBC, is there some relevance to "bad dreams"

Nope. It's just everybody reading the line like a twat.

Well, being directed to read the line like a twat.

Well, being given twatty dialogue.

[CounterPunch]

It was said in a way; and felt so out of place, that made it very much feel as if there was a purpose for them not simply saying nightmares.

Is it likely to improve when... Moffat (that his name?) takes over? I've always liked the idea of Doctor Who, but I just havent been able to get past the awful awful dialogue, the inclusion of Catherine Tate (whom I despise) does not help... or The Master going all Gollum before he was kidnapped.

[Halfshell]

Hopefully. Though much of that stems from a deep-seated failure to see how things could get much worse (though each time I think that, RTD just found more down).

Moffatt's got a decent pedigree as a show-runner, even if it's not on sci-fi stuff and his Who scripts so far have been enjoyable if formulaic. Completely new cast will likely help too, though I've not seen Matt Smith in anything ever* so really I've got no idea. Hopefully.

* - May not be supported by facts. I can't be arsed to check IMDB.

[Cliffjumper]

Well, the two minutes I just saw while looking for the next DVD of Blake's 7 were shit beyond belief. It's like Twats Anonymous on there. Is this actually going to be worth stealing?

[Halfshell]

THE
END
OF
TENNANT

Well. That was... unexpectedly classy. And almost nice.

Well, everything from The Doctor realising he's not dead onwards, at any rate. Everything before that was overacted melodramatic technobabble and wankery (as predicted - wooha!).

Considering that the best stuff recently has been when Cribbins and Tennant have been onscreen alone together by a country mile, The Doctor sacrificing himself for Wilf was the best possible scenario. Actually reminded me of Androzani a bit.

I was afraid the little codas would be saccharine and tacky, but largely not. Martha's still an idiot, hiding in direct view... Cap'n Jack's now off living in the Star Wars Cantina... even the Jess Hynes bit nearly bought a tear to my eye and spoilers meant I knew what was coming.

Really really nice to see RTD go out on an understated and subdued note of actual proper emotion rather than the self-contragulatory bombast he pulled at the end of season 4.

Shame about the episode and a half of utter shite I had to sit through to get there, but that was quite lovely. You can just see Tennant's heart break when he hears that tapping.

SPOILER! (select to read)

Was Dalton actually Rassilon then, or was the Doctor being spiteful? I thought ol' Rassy was properly deaded and entombed somewhere?

[DrEvil]

SPOILER! (select to read)

Pretty sure it was Rassy. The seals on the table are the same.

I loved this. A fitting end for Tennant. The last few scenes of wrapping it all up were really well done.
Even with Tennant's " I don't want to go" you can see his heart breaking too. He had a genuine love for the character.

I'm not going to comment on Smith yet. But I'm not too fond of the new logo, if that's what it was. Yes, it's a nice idea but...I dunno.

[Jetfire]

THE
END
OF
TENNANT

Well. That was... unexpectedly classy. And almost nice.

Well, everything from The Doctor realising he's not dead onwards, at any rate. Everything before that was overacted melodramatic technobabble and wankery (as predicted - wooha!).

Considering that the best stuff recently has been when Cribbins and Tennant have been onscreen alone together by a country mile, The Doctor sacrificing himself for Wilf was the best possible scenario. Actually reminded me of Androzani a bit.

I was afraid the little codas would be saccharine and tacky, but largely not. Martha's still an idiot, hiding in direct view... Cap'n Jack's now off living in the Star Wars Cantina... even the Jess Hynes bit nearly bought a tear to my eye and spoilers meant I knew what was coming.

Really really nice to see RTD go out on an understated and subdued note of actual proper emotion rather than the self-contragulatory bombast he pulled at the end of season 4.

Shame about the episode and a half of utter shite I had to sit through to get there, but that was quite lovely. You can just see Tennant's heart break when he hears that tapping.

I liked it but got a tad irritated when the ood turns up and says "The whole Universe will sing for you" giving a reminder of who was writing it. The main part of the story wsn't too bad, good idea in general but I fail to see the Doctor couldn't have just shot the machine in the first place. The episode wasby the direction and Tennant. I'm also tired of Doctor who relyingh on all the "Hints of the future" or predictions of whats to come. It's not produced one good story so far. I hope that doesn't ever come up again. I rather liked Smith's brief moment at the end.

SPOILER! (select to read)

Was Dalton actually Rassilon then, or was the Doctor being spiteful? I thought ol' Rassy was properly deaded and entombed somewhere?

I quite liked the revelation of who was Time Lod president. It makes the Doctor's actions at the end of the Timewar make far more sense.

[Jetfire]

Trailer for next series:

http://blogtorwho.blogspot.com/2010/01/ ... tor+Who%29

[DrEvil]

Trailer for next series:

http://blogtorwho.blogspot.com/2010/01/ ... tor+Who%29

God, that actually looks good.

[Jetfire]

God, that actually looks good.

Indeed.

SPOILER! (select to read)

I rather like the fact Alex Kingstons character is returning. This time the role will be reversed. It seems the Doctors new pet word is "geronimo" (one I'm sure was my favorite word in primary school. It is even writen on one report)

Interesting moment with the Dalek there and Amy Pond looks gorgeous

[Savannahtron]

Oddly enough, I have been watching the Doctor all day today on a BBC America marathon. Very decent series.

[inflatable dalek]

Well that was a wonderful little surprise, a second part that was much better than the first. I don't know when Catherine Tate started taking acting lessons but even she was perfectly bearable. And they didn't undo the end of last year either, after the Rose debacle that was a good thing.


John Simm was a step up from last week where he'd already improved his game and actually became rather wonderful. A fitting end for the character, and I hope that is the last we see of him now, partly because the only way to bring him back would be to bring all the other Time Lords back again as well but also it really had a proper sense of closure for him. The idea he's only the way he is because the Time Lords made him that way was actually quiet affecting, and evdn explains why most of his Universe destroying/ruling plans did turn to shit, there was a part of him steering him to this destiny.


[Though... Considering he seems to have set up his resurrection at the start of this story just on the off chance he was killed off there's a worrying possibility that over the years he's scattered hundreds of those rings and set up hypnotised cultists all over the Galaxy, which means he can never be truly called gone. Though instant explanation for all his unexplained returns though].

My Ood theory turned out to be completely wrong (more on them in a second), but the actual way the Time Lords were brought back was nice and simple and made as much sense as it needed to. "They were sealed away in a time bubble" feels like a bit of a retcon from "They all died I WATCHED IT BURN" though. Tim Dalton was fantastic, no subtlety or depth but no one can do OTT evil and yet still make it work like he can. And yeah, it was Rassilon. Considering they had no trouble bringing the Master back to fight in the Time War the greatest of them all wouldn't have been that much more of a challenge, especially as Five Doctors suggested he wasn't totally dead anyway. I thought it was nice his name (which wouldn't mean anything to most viewers anyway) was treated as a throwaway detail rather than trying to make a big thing of it.

Interestingly, as well as "The Narrator" bluff the whole character of Rassilon here is pretty much taken from the Big Finish stuff. There's the red herring of him potentially be a wrong'un dangled in front of us in The Five Doctors to try and make Borusa seem less guilty but the Audio's were the ones to really make him a full on genocidal nutter (who winds up trapped in a pocket universe that's not all that different from a Time Bubble as well).

Lots and lots of little highlights as well, everything with Bernard Cribbins (and how wonderful is it that he wasn't a Time Lord or the White Guardian or defender of the Earth, just a sweet old man doing his best?), the dog fight sequence (which may be the most Doctor Who thing ever, doing Star Wars with a pensioner), "He's one inch too tall", the way the usual hypocrisy of the Doctor condemning guns all the time when being perfectly happy to use other means of blowing up his enemies is actually properly addressed, the Master desperately trying to pick the winning side before Rassilon really pisses him off... Just lots of lovely stuff. And despite what the papers were going on about when she was cast at no point did they come out and say the old woman was the Doctor's Mother. Heavily implied with all the comments about Wilf being like his Dad, but you could have her as Susan, Romana, or just a Time Lord who's still got some sense in them (my preference). I wonder who the other one who refused to go along with the vote and had to keep their eyes covered was. Unless someone just thought two people kneeling behind Dalton would look cool.

Before I get onto the coda stuff, the main flaws: What was going on with the Ood? Their telepathic powers and city building was set up as a mystery last week and here gets ignored. The shouty black man and his daughter had no purpose whatsoever (even his arrest gets treated as an aside) and it seemed a bit odd that most of the people turned into the Master seemed not to move. For at least a day. Despite their ravenous hunger (which should really have resulted in them eating each other). And did the Doctor really set up Donna's mind so that if she started to remember anything she'd send out a nasty stun beam? Lucky she was surrounded by villains rather than loved ones really. Oh, and the Doctor should not only have been killed by that fall from the spaceship but probably have been turned into a pancake as well. But hey, it looked cool.

As Halfshell said, the Doctor being killed after the main plot is finished, sacrificing himself to save just one friend was very Androzarni, and worked as well. Loved his reaction to the door opening afterwards as well. The way he was genuinely angry and upset was very different to anything we've had before as well and genuinely got me tearing up, "I don't want to go" aren't the last words I expected but worked perfectly.

The decision to give him something that would kill him slowly so he could go say all his goodbyes should have been far to schmaltzy but it really really worked well, everyone. And Midshipman Frame! Such a simple way of featuring Rose as well.

Ironically the main weakness was the bit written by Steven Moffatt. I know there was a need to get rid of the current Tardis set now as there's no chance for a refit between seasons but having it blow up as he regenerates distracted from the moment, I've no problem with the process being so violent it wreaks everything but it was probably the wrong choice. Smith was fine but his first few lines were far to like Tennant's and Simm's, he really needed something new to stand him apart.

All in all though, the perfect ending Tennant deserved. I would say it's only second to Androzarni as a regeneration show, but that's a bit of a backhanded compliment considering how bad most of the others are (honourable exception for The War Games of course).

[Jetfire]

Well that was a wonderful little surprise, a second part that was much better than the first. I don't know when Catherine Tate started taking acting lessons but even she was perfectly bearable. And they didn't undo the end of last year either, after the Rose debacle that was a good thing.

Ironically prior to her success I've seen Tate act really well.

John Simm was a step up from last week where he'd already improved his game and actually became rather wonderful. A fitting end for the character, and I hope that is the last we see of him now, partly because the only way to bring him back would be to bring all the other Time Lords back again as well but also it really had a proper sense of closure for him. The idea he's only the way he is because the Time Lords made him that way was actually quiet affecting, and evdn explains why most of his Universe destroying/ruling plans did turn to shit, there was a part of him steering him to this destiny.

[Though... Considering he seems to have set up his resurrection at the start of this story just on the off chance he was killed off there's a worrying possibility that over the years he's scattered hundreds of those rings and set up hypnotised cultists all over the Galaxy, which means he can never be truly called gone. Though instant explanation for all his unexplained returns though].

Prehaps previously he never had the opportunity to gain such a device. I'm under the impression that most of the time the Master was a tad irresponsible about hsi lifes until he got his last one, then he was basically surviving in stolen body.

My Ood theory turned out to be completely wrong (more on them in a second), but the actual way the Time Lords were brought back was nice and simple and made as much sense as it needed to. "They were sealed away in a time bubble" feels like a bit of a retcon from "They all died I WATCHED IT BURN" though. Tim Dalton was fantastic, no subtlety or depth but no one can do OTT evil and yet still make it work like he can. And yeah, it was Rassilon. Considering they had no trouble bringing the Master back to fight in the Time War the greatest of them all wouldn't have been that much more of a challenge, especially as Five Doctors suggested he wasn't totally dead anyway. I thought it was nice his name (which wouldn't mean anything to most viewers anyway) was treated as a throwaway detail rather than trying to make a big thing of it.

I wouldn't say exactly that the "I watched them burn" has been retconned. Clearly the timelords here were from eariler in the past where they are near the end of the time war and were trying to do something about their inevitable end but knowing the events would be bubbled off. Back in their bubble they will eventually meet their end as before.

I do love the way events had got to the point where Rassalon was in charge and that naturally makes it clear why the Doctor is too scared to save them.

Interestingly, as well as "The Narrator" bluff the whole character of Rassilon here is pretty much taken from the Big Finish stuff. There's the red herring of him potentially be a wrong'un dangled in front of us in The Five Doctors to try and make Borusa seem less guilty but the Audio's were the ones to really make him a full on genocidal nutter (who winds up trapped in a pocket universe that's not all that different from a Time Bubble as well).

Lots and lots of little highlights as well, everything with Bernard Cribbins (and how wonderful is it that he wasn't a Time Lord or the White Guardian or defender of the Earth, just a sweet old man doing his best?), the dog fight sequence (which may be the most Doctor Who thing ever, doing Star Wars with a pensioner), "He's one inch too tall", the way the usual hypocrisy of the Doctor condemning guns all the time when being perfectly happy to use other means of blowing up his enemies is actually properly addressed, the Master desperately trying to pick the winning side before Rassilon really pisses him off... Just lots of lovely stuff. And despite what the papers were going on about when she was cast at no point did they come out and say the old woman was the Doctor's Mother. Heavily implied with all the comments about Wilf being like his Dad, but you could have her as Susan, Romana, or just a Time Lord who's still got some sense in them (my preference). I wonder who the other one who refused to go along with the vote and had to keep their eyes covered was. Unless someone just thought two people kneeling behind Dalton would look cool.

That's certainly the mystery for me. Who was that time lady. The Doctor obviously recognised her and she clearly isn't in favour of Rassalon being in charge.

Before I get onto the coda stuff, the main flaws: What was going on with the Ood? Their telepathic powers and city building was set up as a mystery last week and here gets ignored. The shouty black man and his daughter had no purpose whatsoever (even his arrest gets treated as an aside) and it seemed a bit odd that most of the people turned into the Master seemed not to move. For at least a day. Despite their ravenous hunger (which should really have resulted in them eating each other). And did the Doctor really set up Donna's mind so that if she started to remember anything she'd send out a nasty stun beam? Lucky she was surrounded by villains rather than loved ones really. Oh, and the Doctor should not only have been killed by that fall from the spaceship but probably have been turned into a pancake as well. But hey, it looked cool.

As Halfshell said, the Doctor being killed after the main plot is finished, sacrificing himself to save just one friend was very Androzarni, and worked as well. Loved his reaction to the door opening afterwards as well. The way he was genuinely angry and upset was very different to anything we've had before as well and genuinely got me tearing up, "I don't want to go" aren't the last words I expected but worked perfectly.

The way Tennant delivered those words were heartbreaking. Brilliant. I've give RTD this, he may dwell for ages on it but it was a good end to the Doctor. It's just a shame, unless the Doctor is lying about his age the 10th Doctor only lved a few years. He's 906 years old and he 9th was 900+. Not been given a good run for this regeneration.

I find it one of the writers biggest misses that the first Doc lived for 400+ years. between 2 and 4 another 300+ years then for the past 2 only a couple of years between them, much the same for Davidson also.

The decision to give him something that would kill him slowly so he could go say all his goodbyes should have been far to schmaltzy but it really really worked well, everyone. And Midshipman Frame! Such a simple way of featuring Rose as well.

Ironically the main weakness was the bit written by Steven Moffatt. I know there was a need to get rid of the current Tardis set now as there's no chance for a refit between seasons but having it blow up as he regenerates distracted from the moment, I've no problem with the process being so violent it wreaks everything but it was probably the wrong choice. Smith was fine but his first few lines were far to like Tennant's and Simm's, he really needed something new to stand him apart.

I'm sure it will come, I suspose given Tennant's popularity you didn't want to completely put his legion of fans off his replacement. Plus I loved the moment where he thinks he's a girl.

All in all though, the perfect ending Tennant deserved. I would say it's only second to Androzarni as a regeneration show, but that's a bit of a backhanded compliment considering how bad most of the others are (honourable exception for The War Games of course).

[CounterPunch]

As others have said, the sequences following the resolution of the main plot were very good, even for a non fan such as me... I knew very little about the Wilf character, but felt the pain and such in both the Doctor and himself as they spoke about the radiation... And the wrap-up-montage as I've decided to call it seemed very fitting... Not only allowed the Doctor a few last moments with the people who had impacted on his time, but wrapped up the RTDverse.

The Smith scene did reek alot of the Tennant one (unless I'm completely misremembering it), hopping about excited, making silly noises, pressing buttons etc...

[inflatable dalek]

Ironically prior to her success I've seen Tate act really well.

Yeah, it's odd that she's seemingly very well regarded for her non-comedy stuff but none of that's really shown in Who. Though the same was true of the normally very talented Simm as well, perhaps the directors are the problem? Euros got much better performances off both of them here.

I wouldn't say exactly that the "I watched them burn" has been retconned. Clearly the timelords here were from eariler in the past where they are near the end of the time war and were trying to do something about their inevitable end but knowing the events would be bubbled off. Back in their bubble they will eventually meet their end as before.

Oh, I like that, yeah that works.

That's certainly the mystery for me. Who was that time lady. The Doctor obviously recognised her and she clearly isn't in favour of Rassalon being in charge.

SPOILER! (select to read)

The Rani. :0

The way Tennant delivered those words were heartbreaking.

It was interesting to see on Confidential that they did a whole load of different takes on that, ranging from resignation to full on panic. This was apparently the mid-range option as they didn't want him to seem completely unheroic at the end.

It's just a shame, unless the Doctor is lying about his age the 10th Doctor only lved a few years. He's 906 years old and he 9th was 900+. Not been given a good run for this regeneration.

Well, Romana caught him lying about his age and he's lost 50 years since McCoy so I think that's a fair assumption if you want (or that he's using Time Lord years of course). 906 is still three up on his age in Voyage of the Dammed though, and we've only seen a small part of that, plenty of room for the comics, books, CD's and inevitable reunion specials in there.

[CounterPunch]

So as a non... whoer (what are who fans called?), I must point out, I watched only maybe the first half of the first part, and then I watched the majority of the second... But are The Masters ability to... Well, basically leap massive distances/fly, and fire energy blasts down to his physical degradation? And the energy blasts was merely his seeping life force that he was... directing, so to speak?

[inflatable dalek]

It's down to his resurrection going badly wrong last week, effectively he's got full access to all the inner power/lifeforce of a Time Lord but it's destroying him. To be charitable I'll assume none of the Master copies had the same abilities (despite the hunger) as otherwise the Doctor's gurney escape makes them look really crap.

EDIT: Looking at the forums, it seems the people who don't like the Evil Rassilon idea are running with Dalton playing a Rassilon rather than the Rassilon, just another guy of the same name (which for all we know could be as common amongst Time Lords as Fred).

[Heinrad]

I was right! I was right! -insert appropriate victory dance here-

Either I'm psychic, or RTD is far easier to figure out than he should be. What I can't figure out is why people would think Rassilon is such a wonderful, BFF type of guy. He rode into the core of a black hole to grab the Eye on Harmony, he seems to have been the first, and only, War Leader to lead Gallifrey in a time of war(the war which so disgusted the average Gallifreyian to the point of a race-wide abhorration of war), he came up with a game to trap any Time Lords who wanted his immortality, and his tomb is stuck in the center of a place called the Death Zone. Somebody who laid the foundations of his planet's society is not necessarially going to be sweetness and light.

I didn't get the impression that the Master got sucked into the time bubble when Gallifrey went back, though. I figured it was more "bright flare of light, dazed Doctor falls over, Wilf's optic nerve gets stunned, Master beats feet", hopefully to find more of his cultists to try to fix his malfunctioning ressurection.

But that was a very well done finale for the 10th Doctor.

What I'm wondering his how, exactly, Captain Jack wound up in the Star Wars cantina, anyway? I should probably finish watching Children of Earth at some point.......

The only one that jarred, really, was Rose's. Seeing her mother in hot pants was bad enough, but don't you think Rose would've remembered when the Tenth Doctor picked his outfit and started wearing that trenchcoat?

In the audio "An Earthly Child", Susan scolds the Eigth Doctor for burning through his lives so fast. This may well be a cause for concern. Incarnation number 9 was here and gone in the blink of an eye, comparatively speaking.

And 11's got an interesting debut. I haven't seen the next series trailer yet, but I think he's going to work. He's got some big shoes to fill. Think we'll get a console room that looks more like it did in the old days?

[Halfshell]

the actual way the Time Lords were brought back was nice and simple and made as much sense as it needed to. "They were sealed away in a time bubble" feels like a bit of a retcon from "They all died I WATCHED IT BURN" though.

Well it's from the instants before they burnt, innit? The who/how/what of the timelock was never explained... it could be they tried to escape and realised that they couldn't, with Rassilon then twigging what it was. Presumably by that point The Master had already legged it.

The whole thing gets locked off, then boom they're all fried. Dalton was from the bit in between.

I think. Actual science and plot was never RTD's strong suit. Fortunately, as said, he discarded all that for character for the last half.