Encore Bruticus released, sloppily

Post by **Clay** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:40 pm

Mold wear, yay!

I can hear the sound of Tom being right from across the pond...

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:47 pm

No, there's no problem there whatsoever. Hasbro once released a GI Joe figure with poor moulding, so this is fine and we should all buy 8 each. or, if you don't need 8 sets of Combaticons, just buy one and post Takara the money for another 7 as a thanks. Embrace the mediocrity and settle for shit, it's never let us down before!

Post by **Clay** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:49 pm

Read the comments in the linked thread. People are doing exactly that

.

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:00 pm

This is why I'm permanently irate. Settling for stuff like this means stuff like this is what you'll all get. The best case scenario really is that the price of the originals will most likely drop by enough to make them affordable to anyone who wants a Bruticus. That surely isn't how this sort of thing's meant to work?

You've got to wonder what HasTak are making these moulds out of, or how they're using or storing them... I mean, yeh, the Bruticus moulds have seen a bit of action (Euro Classics, G2, Op Com, CR, RiD, "RiD", right?), but I dunno... I mean, Bandai's regular Leader-1 mould was in production for something like 5 years, then stored for six or seven and reused without degradation, with some of that handled by a two-bit operation (Tonka). Same goes for Scooter, Road Ranger, Crasher and at least a few others...

Surely they'd have more than one set of masters, right?

borg72 · Post by **borg72** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:08 pm

call me uneducated (you wouldn't be the first recently), but is it not possible to recast molds if the original measurements are to hand? and even if not, can they not be easily deduced from looking at either the originals or one of the original toys, and just scanning the parts?

is it completely stupid to expect a manufacturer to be able to replicate something with a measure of accuracy?

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:28 pm

borg72 wrote:call me uneducated (you wouldn't be the first recently), but is it not possible to recast molds if the original measurements are to hand? and even if not, can they not be easily deduced from looking at either the originals or one of the original toys, and just scanning the parts?

is it completely stupid to expect a manufacturer to be able to replicate something with a measure of accuracy?

I gather the process is expensive for the former, due largely to Takara taking such bad care of the moulds over the years (these things are made of steel, and aren't too hard to keep care of, especially when you consider fans are capable of keeping a figure made from them in pristine condition...). How expensive? I'm not entirely sure what we're talking here, hundreds, thousands or whatever, but guessing from the fact they apparently repaired the mould for Soundwave (and did a more minor fix on Jazz... and the Amazing Onebox Brothers, now I think of it), it can't be prohibitively expensive. The problem really is that they've got away with sloppiness before, so there's no need to fix the problems as fans'll lap it up anyway.

http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Mould#Issues_with_Reissues illustrates just how poorly Takara/Hasbro look after the moulds, but bear in mind it's written by the same sort of people who excuse this sort of sloppiness. For what it's worth, there's no reason whatsoever they can't label the moulds or keep an inventory - at least one company, whose output dwarfs that of Takara, seem to be able to manage it.

-Blackout- · Post by **-Blackout-** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:39 pm

Finally, the mold's degrading! We've had enough releases of this guy for 24 years!

Post by **Clay** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 7:22 pm

borg72 wrote:call me uneducated (you wouldn't be the first recently), but is it not possible to recast molds if the original measurements are to hand? and even if not, can they not be easily deduced from looking at either the originals or one of the original toys, and just scanning the parts?

is it completely stupid to expect a manufacturer to be able to replicate something with a measure of accuracy?

If people happily buy a crap version, why spend money fixing it?

burnitall · Post by **burnitall** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 7:39 pm

I had planned on getting it, but I can't spend $85 dollars on that. Damn.

Nevermore · Post by **Nevermore** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:07 pm

Cliffjumper wrote:http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Mould#Issues_with_Reissues illustrates just how poorly Takara/Hasbro look after the moulds, but bear in mind it's written by the same sort of people who excuse this sort of sloppiness. For what it's worth, there's no reason whatsoever they can't label the moulds or keep an inventory - at least one company, whose output dwarfs that of Takara, seem to be able to manage it.

Since I'm obviously an AssbloCrapkara excuser, I won't even try to tell you why your logic is flawed.

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:28 pm

Why? Why is it so implausible that they label things? Seriously, as said before that's basic archival procedure (for the record, I had no idea whether you wrote that or were just parroting it before). There is nothing, but nothing inherently implausible about the moulds being marked some way - maybe they won't have something like "OPTIMUS PRIME ARMS" written on them, but they'd surely have some sort of code and corresponding file system.

In fact, they must have something like that, because a number of desirable moulds have emerged (Prime, Megatron, Prowl, Starscream Sideswipe, Bumblebee, Jazz etc, etc, etc, etc), unless those are the ones that were randomly at the top of piles or something. It's just obvious that whatever system Takara/Hasbro are using is deeply flawed, as it seems to lead to moulds being lost, stolen and broken, which isn't something I've seen or heard from any other company (obviously there are probably lots of minor lines that's moulds are lost forever when their company folded and buyers of assets were two-bit operations, but we're talking stuff Takara has owned from start to finish).

I understand if it's easier for you to throw up a smokescreen and stomp off, however.

Vin Ghostal · Post by **Vin Ghostal** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:35 pm

Nevermore wrote:Since I'm obviously an AssbloCrapkara excuser, I won't even try to tell you why your logic is flawed.

This is the first time I've seen someone outright forfeit a message board debate.

Wow.

Heinrad · Post by **Heinrad** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:50 pm

I work at a plastic parts making company, and if the molds Takara uses are anything like the ones we use(we do injection molding), you need a forklift to lug the molds around.

Stolen? Possible but unlikely. Unless the people from the knock-off companies send their guys in dressed as Takara employees with faked paperwork. Broken is more likely, depending on how complex part of the mold is. If it's got all kinds of little pins and moving parts inside, it's not cheap getting something like that fixed when it breaks.

And casting the molds themselves isn't always going to guarantee a perfect part or production. Even if Takara, say, spent 10 grand to fix or recast the Onslaught mold, and when they got it it wasn't going to crank out perfect parts, they could either send it back for replacement(if they're anything like us, but the company I work for is pretty small), have their own people fix the problem(which we do with some of ours), or as more and more often seems to be the case, say hell with it and crank the figures out.

Degredation in storage is also a good possibility.

I think it largely depends on what you're making. The place I work at makes medical parts, coast guard bouy pieces, parts for the Concept 2 rowing machine, gun parts, etc. Toy parts probably use a different set of temps and tolerances. I know molds can warp to an extent.

But you'd think HasTak would want to keep the customers happy, keep the molds in good shape(or at least keep better track of them).

Or get smarter guards. I know the full sized KO Star Saber I have, as well as the Robot Masters KO Star Saber and Victory Leo that I have, are probably as good as the ones that Takara produced. Maybe that's how the molds get stolen?

Halfshell · Post by **Halfshell** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:56 pm

Vin Ghostal wrote:This is the first time I've seen someone outright forfeit a message board debate.

Really? You do it all the time.

Seriously, though, I don't see where the cause for complaint is - Hasbro and Takara have released substandard things in the past, so we have no right to complain the Combaticon moulds finally rebelling and falling apart might prompt HasTomTak to get off their arses and release a different set of combiners every other year.

Some that aren't the Build Team or the dodgy Energon ones, hopefully.

Did they ever get round to releasing those godawful purple Seacons?

Nevermore · Post by **Nevermore** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 11:22 pm

Halfshell wrote:Did they ever get round to releasing those godawful purple Seacons?

Via the Collectors' Club.

From what I heard, Encore Bruticus was lucky compared to what happened to those molds.

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 11:54 am

Nevermore, can I ask you something?

You love Transformers, right? It's your favourite toyline by some distance, you've done a lot of work researching various aspects of it so you can appreciate it that bit more, work on all sorts of projects related to it, etc, etc - fair comment?

I'm curious, therefore, as to why you feel the need to defend the way Takara/Hasbro have been treating what are basically historical artifacts from the franchise (it's neither here nor there whether the figures are particularly good - it's fair to say it's been a mixed bag, though, and if one mould can be lost/stolen/broken, it can happen to any of them, presumably). I mean, I appreciate there's a certain amount of financial reality involved, due to Takara spending much of the past decade wobbling on the edge, but surely it's still frustrating that they've let casts get into these various states? I mean, if I was to find out that the moulds for Dairugger XV or God Mars or something (and that's just stuff I actually have), I'd be absolutely furious at the company treating the work of previous designers and engineers in such a way.

Nevermore · Post by **Nevermore** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:07 pm

I'm not "defending" anything.

Look at it that way. Those molds are over 20 years old. They might not even have been made the way molds are made today. So naturally they don't exactly age well. Some worse than others. Compare, for example, one of the Prowl/Silverstreak/Smokescreen reissues to the original toys. The details are much sharper on the originals. Then there's the infamous case of Jazz's face that detoriated more and more via G2 and the reissues.

In Jazzs case, Takara restored/recast the mold. They were probably expecting to have a lot of use for it still, so it was worth the effort. Also, it was only one mold.

For Bruticus, we have what, ten, twenty molds? At least one for every plastic color of each individual toy. If several, or all of them are screwed up, they'd all have to be restored/recast. And for what? Another G1 Bruticus reissue five years down the road? Another Universe redeco in jungle camo? Not quite the same thing as Jazz, who's a much more high-profile character.

And that thing about "Historical artifacts"? Hasbro is not a museum. They're a toy manufacturer. Sure, some toys eventually become a part of history, and Hasbro will make sure that the original molds are in a pristine condition. Like G1 Optimus Prime. I assume there were multiple duplicate molds in use even back in the Eighties, and Hasbro/Takara will always make sure to have at least one undamaged one around. But once we come to the less known characters, keeping all the molds in good shape becomes less of a priority. Just think about how many Transformers toys were produced between 1984 and 1990 alone. You think Hasbro really cared about making sure that Action Master Banzai-Tron would still be in good shape 20 years later?

Then think about how many other toylines Hasbro has pumped out over the years. G.I. Joe, My Little Pony, Marvel... you really think Hasbro is worrying about kepping every single mold in excellent shape for decades? Again, we're not talking about a museum here, we're talking about a toy factory in China. Multiple toy factories, even, with frequent moves.

And yeah, Bandai being able to pump out new production runs of Leader-1 for five years straight is totally comparable to the G1 Bruticus mold being worn out 23 years later.

Does the BBC stil have master copies of all the old Dr. Who episodes? Does Marvel still have the original printing masters for all their old comics? This stuff happens. It sucks, but it happens. And it's not necessarily because ZOMG ASSBLO INCOMPETENT.

borg72 · Post by **borg72** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:41 pm

so more like ZOMG ASSBLO ... can't be arsed?

the examples you cite are all well and good, except for the fact that other manufacturers do manage to do it. Lego vault? yes, a small lego set and a larger mold are different kettles of fish size-wise (I assume), but the point stands that all it takes is a dry basement in a warehouse and some foresight.

and what's more, with technology today, they wouldn't even need to keep the physical originals anymore, just a bunch of CAD files (call ir a project and get the graduate trainees or interns to do it)

does making a new mold from a CAD file really cost that much?

saying 'well it happens' is one thing, but it doesn't need to for little-to-no effort.

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:43 pm

And for what? Another G1 Bruticus reissue five years down the road? Another Universe redeco in jungle camo? Not quite the same thing as Jazz, who's a much more high-profile character.

On this count, there was always the option of not reissuing Bruticus if the mould was so shot. Yet despite there being obvious deficiencies, Takara have.

And that thing about "Historical artifacts"? Hasbro is not a museum. They're a toy manufacturer. Sure, some toys eventually become a part of history, and Hasbro will make sure that the original molds are in a pristine condition. Like G1 Optimus Prime.

I dunno, were the second wave of Lightan figures that important to Bandai? Probably not, yet they seem to have survived a quarter of a century with (at most) little enough damage that a regional arm alone can put them out with no problems.

I assume there were multiple duplicate molds in use even back in the Eighties, and Hasbro/Takara will always make sure to have at least one undamaged one around. But once we come to the less known characters, keeping all the molds in good shape becomes less of a priority. Just think about how many Transformers toys were produced between 1984 and 1990 alone. You think Hasbro really cared about making sure that Action Master Banzai-Tron would still be in good shape 20 years later?

It'd show a certain respect to their engineers, designers and product, yes. And again, I really fail to see how they've got in this sort of state where others haven't.

And yeah, Bandai being able to pump out new production runs of Leader-1 for five years straight is totally comparable to the G1 Bruticus mold being worn out 23 years later.

The main point of the Leader-1 example was the thing was fine after seven years storage. The Bruticus mould showed no significant signs of damage for the (first 'show') RiD release at least (which had none of the gaps and warps), so that's, what, eight years? Plus there's the Alternators moulds (was it the Subaru?) that seem to have worn out in, what, five? Something's not being done properly at some stage there. Bruticus wasn't off-sale at any point for more than, what, five-six years (the big gaps - G1 > Euro Classics, or G2 > CR, or RiD 'Universe' > Encore, would all be around there, right?), he's not sat on a shelf for 23 years.

Also, to go back to an earlier point, the choice of Sunstreaker and Wheeljack for Euro Classics would seem to indicate that Hasbro were aware they were significant figures, and yet they still went missing.

Does the BBC stil have master copies of all the old Dr. Who episodes? Does Marvel still have the original printing masters for all their old comics? This stuff happens. It sucks, but it happens. And it's not necessarily because ZOMG ASSBLO INCOMPETENT.

No, see, for a start the BBC one was incompetence - with one exception (which would be a segue upon a segue to go into), the entire show was being offered for sale until about two years before the archive audit (the wiping had start years before), and the BBC thought they had other copies of the rest of it. That's plain incompetence, for which the BBC still get a battering about today.

For Marvel, I couldn't say, I don't know anything about how they operated. I do know, however, that IPC destroyed huge swathes of original artwork (burnt because it was a fire hazard...) from their Fleetway titles, which now only exist in whatever issues survived. That's unacceptable, especially as creators weren't informed. The difference for any published print material is it can be scanned back in, as I believe was done for (some) of Target 2006, and for Titan's Fleetways hardbacks - it's thus not a comparable example.

Halfshell · Post by **Halfshell** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 3:55 pm

I'm yet to see one person who doesn't regard the loss of all those Who episodes as inexcusable idiocy on the part of the BBC. Citing that ****-up as justification for why we shouldn't criticise Takara's similar errors just does not compute.

If Sony said "sorry, we can't release anymore copies of London Calling because we lost the master tapes for three years and then found them in a wet basement and it turns out rats have eaten the drum parts of Clampdown" nobody would say "well, it happens... the BBC lost the end of The Tenth Planet so we can't really complain".

Alright, so the entire back catalogue of The Clash was remastered about ten years ago anyway, so it's a moot example, but I genuinely don't see the point of getting worked up enough to think of an album that isn't sat right next to me.

Is it so hard to acknowledge that certain things should be afforded better care by the people involved in their creation?

And if the Bruticus wear is the result of the constant reuse... well maybe they shouldn't still be using it. Perhaps stop churning out toys from it until they find a way to repair the damage... but no, instead they just churn it out. Let's go back to Who as an example - it's like the BBC sticking out a DVD version of The Dalek Masterplan with absolutely no indication or acknowledgment that bits of it just aren't there, then expecting people to shrug it off as "well, The Macra Terror got lost too".