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Old 2006-04-21, 12:26 PM   #201
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Oh Jimmy doesn't stand a chance. I like the way on the letters page thet state"And those of you who like Verity, hunter and all the rest Don't wrry they're not going anywhere either" No direct mention of Pinko. And by the rest do they mean Jimmy and the Hitler/Mussolini hybrid
 

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Old 2006-04-21, 03:47 PM   #202
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Quote:
Originally posted by Denyer

Megatron's place in Decepticon hierarchy this time around hasn't yet been established,
Hmm. That would be awesome if in this continuity Megatron was not yet top dog and we seen his ascension throughout the Decepticon ranks. I like your idea Stu. Hope IDW uses this. If not now, maybe as an anthology?

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Predictions / general comments... #5 needs some exposition from Starscream. Is it possible that Ratchet's corpse / deactivated body will be retrieved by the M corporation? Is it possible IDW are bluffing that none of the humans will die? Am I just a bit too eager to see characters permanently written out for sake of dramatic consequence? (But after some grounding dialogue, rather than just flinging Super- uh, the Aerialbots to his^P^P^Ptheir deaths without any setup to make us give a damn. Ratchet is therefore current strongest TF contender.)
One thing is for sure. I'll be judging this next issue with the kid gloves off. Things have to happen, or I'm going to be pissed. I want to see Starscream talk. I want to see what happens to Ratchet. Please, somebody die. Show some Decepticon interaction. I want to know more of what's going on. Not all the mysteries, but some answers.
 
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Old 2006-04-21, 04:16 PM   #203
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Thing is, I keep saying to myself that "the next issue had better be the one that keeps going". Really, any non-TF limited series would have had, say, two issues to impress me enough to buy the rest. I think that's one of the things that bothers me the most about Infiltration - it shows me up for being a completist whore. If this thing had been about, I dunno, erm... a comic I read now (Planetary! Knew there was one!), I'd have dropped it by now. Actually, Planetary's a good comparison of the sort of pace I'd prefer. It's not all mental action sequences and three-inch speech bubbles, but it can move in 22 pages (and always has done). In some ways it's not fair to compare them to each other, but in the same way it's not really fair to compare anything to anything else, so what you gonna do?

Wow, that post was nTo-esque in its' null-and-voidicity. Erm, sorry.
 
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Old 2006-04-21, 05:06 PM   #204
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Quote:
Originally posted by Commander Shockwav

One thing is for sure. I'll be judging this next issue with the kid gloves off. Things have to happen, or I'm going to be pissed. I want to see Starscream talk. I want to see what happens to Ratchet. Please, somebody die. Show some Decepticon interaction. I want to know more of what's going on. Not all the mysteries, but some answers.
I believe you're the first person in transformers history to use the phrase, "I want to see Starscream talk". There's no point in killing anyone unless there's a point/meaning to it. Furman has yet to make me care about any of the human cast and probably less for the Transformer cast. 0 point in deaths unless it contributes somehow to the mood/story ands even then it should be handled meaningfully. Plus a feeble death can result in some of the most cringe worthy scenes in comics. Wait for the last issue for any major deaths {None spring to mind} Having Ratchet kill a human(s) by accident or through necessity {maybe Down to Prowlís orders which results in their death etc etc etc) could be an interesting scene and the affect of their death on Ratchet, if handled well, could be interesting. I know this sort of thingís been done before, but itís a nice ally for this Ratchet to go down.
 

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Old 2006-04-21, 07:57 PM   #205
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Originally posted by Cliffjumper
It just feels too much like the joke came first, and everything else later. More time seems to have gone on thinking up a comedy surname (doubtless it's Furman's ker-azy take on none of the humans in TF history having sensible names
Well, as long as he sticks to referring to Hunter as Hunter for the most part.

It would be nice to get commensurate flashbacks occasionally for Hunter/Jimmy, as they're both kind of orbiting Verity at the moment.

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Originally posted by Cliffjumper
I'd seriously say you've been reading the wrong comics... I could sit down and research that, but runs like Peter David on X-Factor and Kurt Busiek on Avengers are full of that stuff.
I'd have to get past actively disliking the Avengers, but Peter David is indeed a strong (if rare) exception to the rule. Most generally seem as subtle as Robbie Morrison on The Authority.

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Originally posted by Cliffjumper
I'd agree... I think the profiles did this in places, but it's kinda hard to write in a non-prose story without having characters just spouting "I like <stuff>" statements for no readily apparent reason. It's very difficult to do for any characters without being leaden, and with TFs it'd be even harder as we can't see their bookshelves or whatever.
Very. And that's a notable gap, really -- TFs generally having no media, no recreation (possible exception for inventors such as Wheeljack or scientists such as Perceptor) except for dumb references to hunting turbo-foxes or similar.

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Originally posted by Cliffjumper
The basic problem with you and me debating this is that if Infiltration carries on as it's been going you'll probably be quite happy, and I won't be
Mmm. For the remainder of this arc, at least. Subtitle a book Infiltration and you expect a cold war; subtitle it Escalation and more characters|panels|action are expected.

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Originally posted by Cliffjumper
Do we know he's dead/deactivated, though? Personally, I think in some ways it'd be great if he was... In some ways, the problem with with Transformers in a battle is that they're always shown to be hard to kill (I suppose, aside from the outside economical pressure, to justify how a war can last millions of years). While I don't really want them to be BIG HUMANS or anything, the idea that they can be killed with relative ease by a similar-bracket TF would be a nice idea. The problem otherwise is that they survive all kinds of crap, and then when the Underbase/Movie turns up, it feels totally artificial.
Indeed... on one hand, Ratchet has probably made one or two stupid mistakes in the past, but he may equally not have encountered triple-changers except in reports and Autobot intelligence profiles.

It remains to be seen if the war has been active for millions of years, since they didn't crash four ago. I'd think their functional immortality (barring massive trauma) is something Furman probably won't mess with, but the race may have been at relative peace until a few centuries ago, say.

Agreed that Ratchet is really best candidate, but reclamation by human tech scavengers seems more likely than permanent deactivation.
 
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Old 2006-04-21, 08:56 PM   #206
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Originally posted by Commander Shockwav
That would be awesome if in this continuity Megatron was not yet top dog and we seen his ascension throughout the Decepticon ranks. I like your idea Stu. Hope IDW uses this.
All I meant was that the situation is an unknown, but I doubt very much he's a single autocrat -- one individual can't functionally control power. I'd expect a council affair, with Megatron having the support of much of it (even if most have their own agendas as well, would possibly rather he was out of the way, etc.)

Quote:
Originally posted by Commander Shockwav
One thing is for sure. I'll be judging this next issue with the kid gloves off. Things have to happen, or I'm going to be pissed. I want to see Starscream talk. I want to see what happens to Ratchet. Please, somebody die. Show some Decepticon interaction. I want to know more of what's going on. Not all the mysteries, but some answers.
Mmm. Needs revelation, although we're getting a far more constant dripfeed of information than in, say, Dark Ages or DWG1. It's time for Starscream's discovery to be made public, and hopefully be plausible... we know Earth has power sources, but so does the rest of the universe. Crashed old Cybertronian tech is a possible, but would have to be well-introduced if not to be hokey.
 
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Old 2006-04-21, 09:50 PM   #207
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Originally posted by Denyer
It would be nice to get commensurate flashbacks occasionally for Hunter/Jimmy, as they're both kind of orbiting Verity at the moment.
This is parrt of my problem... thus far O'Potato has been around to go "Wow, Avril, you're nucking futs!" while Jimmy's been around to... Erm, well, I'm pretty sure he had a purpose beyond a single Sparkplug homage scene. Moderately sure. He might have. The thing is, the time to give us background on these was during #0-4. By all rights there should be too much going on in #5-6 to have room for justifying Jimmy's existance, especially as Hunter's The One Who's Going To Get It Together And Save Avril.

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I'd have to get past actively disliking the Avengers, but Peter David is indeed a strong (if rare) exception to the rule. Most generally seem as subtle as Robbie Morrison on The Authority.
Well, to actively dislike the Avengers is your perogative, but you can't deny it happens There's generally some flavourings to most of the comics I've read more than once, which might not be the bottom of the barrel, but certainly isn't the cream (w00t, mixed metaphor?).

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dumb references to hunting turbo-foxes or similar.
Aye... though dumb as they are, at least they're trying. It's as laudable as engineering a character with a comedy surname as a cheap shortcut to "this guy's been the butt of jokes all his life", I suppose. Part of the problem with Transformers is they're often simply given human pastimes with "cyber", "astro" or "robo" stuck on the front. It's not quite as galling as all those times in the cartoon that someone would get shot in the chest and babble on about how their transmission/handbrake/furry dice were hit, but it's close.

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Mmm. For the remainder of this arc, at least. Subtitle a book Infiltration and you expect a cold war; subtitle it Escalation and more characters|panels|action are expected.
Well, if we're going by titles, I did expect a few Transformers. Ooooh I know, I'm a terror

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Indeed... on one hand, Ratchet has probably made one or two stupid mistakes in the past, but he may equally not have encountered triple-changers except in reports and Autobot intelligence profiles.
See, though, dude, the comic should be telling us this, you shouldn't be having to make so many "maybes"... Not when we've had four issues to build up Ratchet's character and we're still left wondering whether he actually has a clue what he's doing.

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It remains to be seen if the war has been active for millions of years, since they didn't crash four ago. I'd think their functional immortality (barring massive trauma) is something Furman probably won't mess with, but the race may have been at relative peace until a few centuries ago, say.
Hopefully they won't be bound to the gap, as four million years always sounded like a stupidly large number. It's pretty difficult to see how a planet could mount the resources for a thousand year war. In some ways the comic's more realistic approach throws this into sharper relief (was the gap ever mentioned exlpictly in the kids show?), as you've got the existance of non-conventional weapons from an early stage, and the idea of complacent Decepticon leaders loses credibility after a point.
 
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Old 2006-04-21, 09:59 PM   #208
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One thing I'd like to see is if they must do a X-Files conspiracy thing (which like Hunters "I want to believe" poster is about a decade to late to be cool, same goes for a lot of the computer stuff which looks like Furmans research of the net extended to watching I Robot You Jane...) that they do a whole hog rip off- Having the conspiracy know the difference between the good and bad aliens but siding with the bad to save their own hides would be more interesting that the usual "All robots evil despite all evidence to contray!" stuff we get.

Right now I've got a bad feeling the Governmeant is going to follow the homing beacon in that guys lap top thingey back to Ark 19 and attack it assuming the bots were responsible for the Cons attacks...
 
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Old 2006-04-21, 09:59 PM   #209
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cliffjumper


Hopefully they won't be bound to the gap, as four million years always sounded like a stupidly large number. It's pretty difficult to see how a planet could mount the resources for a thousand year war. In some ways the comic's more realistic approach throws this into sharper relief (was the gap ever mentioned exlpictly in the kids show?), as you've got the existance of non-conventional weapons from an early stage, and the idea of complacent Decepticon leaders loses credibility after a point.
I have to say that the 4 million year gap has always been the most sickening pet hate I have about the marvel comics. Its just too long. I could blabber on for hours why but most of these reasons are obvious so[/build up to rant] I seriously hope the Transformers aren't and cannot be as old as they are in the old comics. I mean how is Hotrod a younge gun, hot shot etc. Surely after a few 100 year years let alone his actual age he would have become a hardened soldier. And I don't buy Kup being an old coot on the same basis
 

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Old 2006-04-21, 10:07 PM   #210
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The thing that always got me is that, say, Jazz is still somehow Mr Big when they all meet up again afterwards, despite someone like, say, Topspin having potentially notched up four million years' more in combat. It's actually pretty hard to believe that the tech stood still long enough in a war that the Ark/"Nemesis" crew weren't utterly obsolete by the time they woke up... Hell, it's only the continuity-bothering references to Thunderwing and Predaking kicking around in ye olden days on Cybertron that show there was any advancement beyond the Transforming robot, and yet six issues after he wakes up Grapple can knock out Omega Supreme...
 
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Old 2006-04-21, 10:08 PM   #211
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Given that corpse in that abandoned Decepticon base, I really hope and pray we are not going the Matrix "human battery" route.

That would really, really suck.
 
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Old 2006-04-21, 10:16 PM   #212
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One of the few sensible things Dreamwave did was just shuting down Cybertron for most of the four million years...
 
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Old 2006-04-21, 10:37 PM   #213
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cliffjumper
The thing that always got me is that, say, Jazz is still somehow Mr Big when they all meet up again afterwards, despite someone like, say, Topspin having potentially notched up four million years' more in combat. It's actually pretty hard to believe that the tech stood still long enough in a war that the Ark/"Nemesis" crew weren't utterly obsolete by the time they woke up... Hell, it's only the continuity-bothering references to Thunderwing and Predaking kicking around in ye olden days on Cybertron that show there was any advancement beyond the Transforming robot, and yet six issues after he wakes up Grapple can knock out Omega Supreme...
Exactly. That feeling has always been hard to shake off. It means that the head honchos that everyone thinks are great Prime and Megs had very little influence on the war and some guy named Trannis did stuff why they were sleeping. In fact excluding g2 how many issues is megatron seen being in command of his earthbound troops. And after 4 million years of war neither sideís soldiers would have anything to smile about and surely the roles which side play would have begin to blur, something touched upon in g2. Its one of the only plus points about the cartoon. They just expect you to leave your mind at the door so the continuity mistakes/bad animation etc doesn't matter. And itís why a "Trendy" transformers comic like Infiltration will suffer if it goes down that path
 

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Old 2006-04-23, 12:57 AM   #214
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Originally posted by Cliffjumper
This is parrt of my problem... thus far O'Potato has been around to go "Wow, Avril, you're nucking futs!" while Jimmy's been around to... Erm, well, I'm pretty sure he had a purpose beyond a single Sparkplug homage scene. Moderately sure. He might have. The thing is, the time to give us background on these was during #0-4.
Would've felt like human-stuffing, and we did get backgrounds... Jimmy's was just particularly glib. "I'm a born natural when it comes to mechanics. Ask someone else now." Anyway, if the characters are going to recur, some backstory would be nice and they're going to have to explain how the characters can disappear from their lives for an extended length of time. (And also not be targeted for revenge/murder by the Decepticons.) This'd all be after #6, really.

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Originally posted by Cliffjumper
Well, to actively dislike the Avengers is your perogative, but you can't deny it happens
We're talking at cross-purposes slightly. Most titles that haven't embraced the Ultimatization process don't give much fleshing out to characters (especially DC figureheads) and those that do tend to reduce it to self-aware posturing such as the Ultimates discussion about which actors would play them in movies, when Fury in particular has obviously been done from reference photos.

Avengers (which I can only take your word for -- The Ultimates is the only time the characters have grabbed me), X-Factor and StormWatch are exceptions to a rule. The rule with Marvel apparently now being "Nike gave us lots of money. Lots of our characters like Nike. The others we killed (but they'll be back next issue.) Cha-cha-cha."

Quote:
Originally posted by Cliffjumper
Well, if we're going by titles, I did expect a few Transformers.
And they're there, with an emphasis on the 'transform' part. Some people apparently had difficulty reading the speech balloons that weren't next to a robot head, or assumed the humans were still talking, but there've definitely been Transformers.

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Originally posted by Cliffjumper
we've had four issues to build up Ratchet's character and we're still left wondering whether he actually has a clue what he's doing.
He clearly doesn't and is hoofing it.

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Originally posted by Cliffjumper
was the gap ever mentioned exlpictly in the kids show?
In the pilot, IIRC, and mentions of Cybertronian past as "millions of years ago".

State Games mentions "natural death" (whatever exactly that involves) as having been unknown for at least thousands of years. TMUK concocted the idea of circuit-burn (a point of no return beyond which parts couldn't simply be augmented or replaced, and the only way around would be to personality copy -- eg, Nightbeat -- which seems something TFs are socially resistant to, probably with a view to clear demarcation between AI and robots accorded citizenship.)

For all their adaptability, TFs are in many ways unchanging -- mostly as a matter of authorial convenience, but also through stagnation. I'd like to see a few treaties in place, which both sides are surreptitiously and not-so-subtly cheating against like mad. It might help to explain how populations and the planet have lasted. For that matter, the war may be relatively young, or cyclic, or large parts of Cybertron may actually be settled and defended.

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Originally posted by Cliffjumper
it's actually pretty hard to believe that the tech stood still long enough in a war that the Ark/"Nemesis" crew weren't utterly obsolete by the time they woke up...
Yup. Although they were, I think, to a large extent. Advanced had been made, but the population of Cybertron had fallen and there wasn't the energy to implement tech on a large scale. Except the space bridge, that gaping flaw/convenience in the plot structure...
 
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Old 2006-04-23, 08:59 AM   #215
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Originally posted by Denyer
Would've felt like human-stuffing, and we did get backgrounds... Jimmy's was just particularly glib. "I'm a born natural when it comes to mechanics. <nothing personal, just think quotes shoudln't tower over responses >(And also not be targeted for revenge/murder by the Decepticons.) This'd all be after #6, really.


Hmmm, I think that if all the "development" devoted to Avril was spread mroe evenly across the three, it'd have worked out a lot better.

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Avengers (which I can only take your word for -- The Ultimates is the only time the characters have grabbed me), X-Factor and StormWatch are exceptions to a rule. The rule with Marvel apparently now being "Nike gave us lots of money. Lots of our characters like Nike. The others we killed (but they'll be back next issue.) Cha-cha-cha."
Hmm, again, harsh, I just don't think it necessary to plough through a lot of back issues to refresh my memory enough to reel off a list fo titles (though Excalibur, 90s Captain Marvel, Gen X and Iron Man all spring to mind)... The problem is that Marvel/DC's biggest characters do tend to suffer from a lack of this sort of detailing... for the likes of Batman/Wolverine, it's probably a way of keeping them at arms' length, but it is pretty poor that I own about a hundred issues of Spider-Man and couldn't tell you what he does to unwind.

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And they're there, with an emphasis on the 'transform' part. Some people apparently had difficulty reading the speech balloons that weren't next to a robot head, or assumed the humans were still talking, but there've definitely been Transformers.
The smiley face was there for a reason

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He clearly doesn't and is hoofing it.
It's not so clear, though, is it? One moment he's capable of evading jets and Battlechargers, next he's falling for the old smoking crater.

Quote:
State Games mentions "natural death" (whatever exactly that involves) as having been unknown for at least thousands of years. TMUK concocted the idea of circuit-burn (a point of no return beyond which parts couldn't simply be augmented or replaced, and the only way around would be to personality copy -- eg, Nightbeat -- which seems something TFs are socially resistant to, probably with a view to clear demarcation between AI and robots accorded citizenship.)
Yeh, my view had always been that there are some circuits (brain module, or somesuch) that would eventually burn out and were unique or unfixable.
 
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Old 2006-04-23, 06:26 PM   #216
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I own about a hundred issues of Spider-Man and couldn't tell you what he does to unwind.
Mary-Jane?
 


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Old 2006-04-23, 07:41 PM   #217
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Originally posted by Denyer
Anyway, if the characters are going to recur, some backstory would be nice and they're going to have to explain how the characters can disappear from their lives for an extended length of time.
I'm asuming that's the reason they're loner/outsider charecters- It simplifies things that Verity doesn't have a family to worry about, Hunter a job where he keeps having to explain his abscence etc.
 
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Old 2006-04-23, 07:45 PM   #218
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And Jimmy is going to die so no worries with Pinko.
 

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Old 2006-04-23, 08:36 PM   #219
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Originally posted by inflatable dalek
It simplifies things that Verity doesn't have a family to worry about
I assume Hunter and Jimmy do, though... and Verity must have some stop-offs; or not have been AWOL for very long this time...

Quote:
Originally posted by Cliffjumper
The problem is that Marvel/DC's biggest characters do tend to suffer from a lack of this sort of detailing... for the likes of Batman/Wolverine, it's probably a way of keeping them at arms' length, but it is pretty poor that I own about a hundred issues of Spider-Man and couldn't tell you what he does to unwind.
Mmm, I remember Excalibur / Captain Britain being a lot more comfortable in its skin. The characters that haven't been through so many retcons yet, so many writing and art teams, etc. generally hold up a lot better to charges of inconsistency, and have enough detailing that they aren't simply shapes and stock responses trotted out to equally stock villains.

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Originally posted by Cliffjumper
The smiley face was there for a reason
Mmm. Not all of the responses are direct -- a fair few are for the peanut gallery, really -- and there are readers out there who apparently failed to spot the TFs left, right and centre. Less so on this board, thankfully. Lends a bit of credence to the alt-modes being disguises, I suppose...

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Originally posted by Cliffjumper
One moment he's capable of evading jets and Battlechargers, next he's falling for the old smoking crater.
We know he's read Blitzwing's files (or something similar; if you're truly familiar with a foe, talking to yourself about what they're capable of is much more redundant) but not if he's ever shot down a triple-changer before.

They'd all be issued with data on probable opposition on Earth, but the Autobots are an advance team keeping track of things rather than having heavy-hitters.
 
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Old 2006-04-23, 09:07 PM   #220
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I suppose the team actually makes sense. Ironhide for security, obviously you need a medic on an alien planet same for Wheeljack, Prowl as the groups leader, Bumblebee for the espionage required and Sunstreaker as an out and out warrior. Good move that they didn't have Prime on board, makes it much more believable as I doubt the Head of the entire "army" would actually leave their home planet. Plus the fact that its not a simple "Fearless leader here is our report situation" in that it seems like a big enough deal for Ironhide to be contacting Prime makes it a lot more believable than whatís gone before.
 

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