Originally posted by ArdvarkYeah, probably should have made that a little more (Little/ a lot -- it's all the same) clear -- I was going for/alluding to the age-old "Transforming Robots??!! Gender - Sex??!! ETC??!!!" argument. In other words, gentle prodding.
Gender does equal sex by its very definition. By dictionary definition, "gender" refers both to the phyiscal sex and to the cultural and scietal roles attributed to a person's sex. In either case, it is tied directly to sex. Only sexually reproducing life forms have genders. Only sexually reproducing life forms have males and females. Other than Marvel, all TF realities have male and female Transformers. Just because they're mechanically based life does not mean that they can't reproduce through some sexual means. the Japanese manga version of
Victory certainly proves otherwise. All of the Decepticons had wives, sisters, and children. They had families that they were fighting to save. The Lithonians from the movie, another Transformer race, also had males, females and children. Wheelie had a mother and father who died in the crash that left him stranded on Quintessa. Transformers engage in courtship, romantic rivalries, and marriage, all of which is exclusive to a sexually reproducing species since the purpose of these activities in life is in the selection of a mate for the purpose of reproduction and raising of offspring. And, given that their basic composition is nanomachine-based to begin with, and the fact that they do have genetic code (they have a DNA analog), there is no reason why they couldn't reproduce through some form of sexual means, including but not necessarily phyisical interfacing.
Originally posted by TFVanguard
Originally posted by Aardvark
Yeah, probably should have made that a little more (Little/ a lot -- it's all the same) clear -- I was going for/alluding to the age-old "Transforming Robots??!! Gender - Sex??!! ETC??!!!" argument. In other words, gentle prodding.
Thing is, we've had female Transformers since 1985. They've been in every line in some capacity except Generation Two, so arguing about their existence seems kinda moot to me.
As for sex, Beast Wars and Beast Machines is rather explicit about sexual contact, though the protoform-based Transformers are designed to mimic organic life in many ways, so that may just be a natural outgrowth of that.
Physical attraction between 'robots' seems odd to us, but that may just be an aesthetic preference and some hard-wired expectations. Arcee and the G1 femmes, while definately female shaped, didn't really scream 'pin-up' in their characterizations. You also didn't have all the 'male' robots drooling over their designs... attraction and affection seemed more mature than that, frankly.
(Chromia and Ironhide's very brief interaction was very nice, for instance)
Sure, they LOOKED like Barbies in armor, but they didn't act like Barbies in armor, and weren't treated as such.
Cybertron Thunderblast, on the other hand...
Yeah, Thunderblast does fit that mold, which is what made her so funny. Personally, I don't find physical attraction between males and females of as robotic life form unusual at all. It makes perfect sense. If they have genders, then they would logically be capable of reproduction, and thus would need to be "hardwired" to seek out perspective mates of the opposite sex, just like any other life form, organic or otherwise.
Originally posted by inflatable dalek
Originally posted by TFVanguard
Thing is, we've had female Transformers since 1985. They've been in every line in some capacity except Generation Two, so arguing about their existence seems kinda moot to me.
Though I have to say the comic having no gender's for the characters (and coming up for an explanation for Arcee that doesn't contradict that) is a big part of why I much prefer it to the cartoon. IDW seem to be going for the same thing despite Alex Milne's best efforts...
I agree. The Marvel reality was the only reality which made Transformers asexual, and thus genderless. Personally, I thought that was a very bad idea. They're too complex an organism to be asexual, and only being capable of creating new life through building them and them imbuing them with a spark would make them not life forms. one of the key life processes that all life forms must be capable of for survival is the ability to self-propagate through asexual (budding, fission) or sexual means (the union of gametes). For any complex organism, asexual reproduction is out of the question. It doesn't provide for the genetic diversity necessary to allow the species to survive disease or to evolve. And, yes, there are diseases that affect Transformers in canon.
Originally posted by TFVanguard
I think it's more dis-served to make a big deal about their being female Transformers, particularly when the writers (most infamously Simon Furman) suddenly go "A GIRL! WHAT NOW?! THE WORLD IS ENDING! COOTIES! WE HAVE TO EXPLAIN THIS!"
Or the insistance that they be treated as a seperate entity. Elita One's group could be an exception, since it was explicitly stated that females were being hunted to EXTINCTION as a Decepticon military goal (begging its own questions)...
But since then there's been this 'demand' that any female Transformer have an 'origin' story, or that they be treated very differently from the males, or -worse- have to include the issue of sex explicity when they're introduced.
I honestly think THAT is a bigger problem than justifying their existence as backstory, which could be easily done if needed. (One scene each from BW and BM solidifies WHY you would have females, after all)
And, as for Arcee's comic introduction, her introduction as 'female design, but gender-netural' is eliminated in the same issue, thanks to Hot Rod's reaction - and also the explicit romantic entanglement with Rodimus Prime in "Space Pirates".
That is one of the biggest issues I have with Furman. There is no reason to "explain" this. Transformers are living beings. They're life forms—organisms—not just robots. There is no reason why they wouldn't have males and females just like many organic species, nor why those sexes could not play a role in the propagation of their species. Just because they're robotic does not mean anything. Also, they don't have to explicitly include sex anywhere. It can be implicit just as it was in the original cartoon, movie, and Japanese
Victory manga. On top of that, we only know the identities of a few of the Original 13 created by Primus himself. It is quite possible, and probable, that at least one of the unnamed members was a femme. I have a sneaking suspicion that Beta might be one of the Original 13, given her age and connection to Alpha Trion, though I have no proof that she is. As I said, it's just seculation on my part. That is all we need. Show that they have been male and female from the beginning. Show them with families, courting, marrying, having and raising children, etc. That is all we need. We certainly don't need explicit sex. We don't need a huge explaination why a robotic race would have females.
And that is all I will say on that particular matter here.
As for a "pin-up book, I see no reason why we shouldn't do one. It sounds like a lot of fun, and yes, could be a good piece of reference material showing these characters in different poses and angles, outside of battle, and at the same time, giving us a tongue-in-cheek glimpse at what a male Cybertronain might "read" for fun.
As long as it doesn't go overboard, I certainly have no problem with it.